Quints

[soon2bfdny]

any departments out there that have quints, do you guys have a policy to determine if you perform as an engine or as a ladder company if you are first due to a fire. considering you have a fire with a report of victims trapped

[ENG27SQ]

Jan 31, 2009 1:10:59 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

any departments out there that have quints, do you guys have a policy to determine if you perform as an engine or as a ladder company if you are first due to a fire. considering you have a fire with a report of victims trapped

No quints at either of my stations but if it's victims trapped, I'd guess you'd go as a ladder co. as a search and rescue company.

[cmcollier]

In my opinion the first arriving unit should operate as a truck. Position the rig as if you plan to use the aerial ladder, you can always add hose to your stretch if you come up short but if the ladder doesn’t reach you are out of luck. Let’s look at the incident objectives for any incident and then I’ll explain why I think the first unit should operate as a truck:

1. Life safety
2. Incident stabilization
3. Property conservation

The first arriving unit should operate as a truck and for sake of this argument I'll assume four man staffing and that the fire is in a residential type building (house, condo, apartment).

The officer and one firefighter go inside to conduct a search with a can and irons. They are searching for trapped occupants (#1) as well as the fire. When they locate the fire they can hold the fire with the can long enough to complete the search and attempt to confine the fire by closing a door to the fire room or if the room does not have a door by ripping a door off of another room and holding it over the opening. By quickly locating and confining the fire they are helping with all of the incident objectives. They are making the area more tenable for anyone who may be trapped by confining the fire, by confining the fire they are helping to stabilize the incident and conserve property by containing the fire to its original area.

The chauffer and the other firefighter provide the 2 in 2 out requirement for the firefighters that went inside. Because they are the 2 out does not mean they have to just stand there. They should be doing a perimeter survey and setting up for VES. One firefighter does the perimeter search and radio's the chief his findings. The perimeter survey is extremely important. Info such as where trapped occupants are located, location of occupants that have jumped, where the fire is located, grade differences, and so on can be obtained. If people are at windows needing rescue the 2 out can remove them via portable ladders and still be the safety team for the firefighters inside (even though that is not required by OSHA when there is a known life hazard it’s still in the best interest of the firefighters inside to have the safety team available). The firefighter that did the perimeter survey can radio to the chauffeur as to what size ladder to bring. As I mentioned there may be a grade difference from the front to the back of the building, you may need a 35 foot ladder to reach the second floor of some houses that have a grade or the third floor of an apt or condo building.

Hopefully by this time the second due company is arriving. When they arrive the 2 safety team firefighters can begin VES. VES should be conducted in the area where people will be in the most danger (more info obtained from the perimeter survey). They may be able to get to an area to search using VES that the inside team cannot access due to fire conditions blocking the stairs or hallway. VES (which is horizontal ventilation) must be coordinated with the second due company getting the line in place. The outside team cannot just start smashing windows and dive in. If there is any indication that a person may be trapped you may have to VES before the line is in place. In that case the firefighter must vent the window and get in and close the room door ASAP. When you complete the search of that room if the line is in place you should open the door back up otherwise you are not doing the V part of VES.


Now let’s look at the other side of the argument; the first arriving company operating as an engine. Let’s say the first company arrives and stretches a line into the building and knocks down the fire. If the fire is only one or two rooms there is a good chance they can put it out or at very least darken it down very quickly with tank water, that is if the location of the fire is obvious (objectives 2&3). If they have to search for the fire that is going to make this operation take longer. If there are people trapped inside the building and the company is stretching a line and putting out the fire the trapped occupants are being subject to the heat and smoke for a longer amount of time (not helping objective #1). By the time the fire is knocked down and then the company that was acting as an engine begins a search or the second due company does it may be too late for the trapped occupants. If the first company left a firefighter at the hydrant and layed in this is going to further delay operations due to the stretch and fire attack taking longer being a person short.

So let’s look at the incident objectives again:

1. Life Safety
2. Incident stabilization
3. Property conservation

As I've said I think the first due company operating as a truck helps to address more of the incident objectives much quicker. If we don’t succeed at #1 the other two don't matter. I would much rather get inside quickly and pull someone who may be trapped out and have the building burn to the ground than put the fire out quickly and after the fire is out find a body inside the house that was killed by the smoke even though we held the fire to one room by operating as an engine first.

In a perfect world quints wouldn't exist. If things were perfect you would have an engine and ladder both fully staffed arrive together all the time so ALL vital fireground functions could be covered simultaneously. Unfortunately that is not the reality.

Quints should (in my opinion) to operate as a quint (do both engine and truck work) be staffed with 6 firefighters. The additional 2 firefighters could stretch a line and begin fire suppression (yes, I know a lot of stretches require more than two firefighters).

They don’t put 6 seats in fire trucks for no reason!

[soon2bfdny]

is this what fdny does

[cmcollier]

Feb 1, 2009 3:40:23 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

is this what fdny does

yes, also the roof man goes to the basement with the traffic cones

[soon2bfdny]

so in ny, do engine companies do ladder work if they are first to arrive to a fire

[WebBoss]

Collier, thanks for that long post. You did a great job summing up a lot of first due needs that unfortuantely all end up over looked.

My take on Quints is that you're either going to run as a Ladder or as an Engine. By Burlington County's newest radio policy, Quints aren't even supposed to be dispatched as such. The function should be dispatched, and everyone knows that a Quint can be either - or.

The theory behind having a quint is to have a dual role rig that can be either a ladder truck or an engine. Unfortuantely, a lot of the rigs are actually lack luster in both.

Especially in areas such as Tabernacle where ladder trucks are far and few between, the rig should be (IMO) a ladder truck first that could act as a pumper if need be.

BTW - Congrats to 181 on getting off the QUINT bandwagon - it's nice to see their new rig as LADDER 1815. I guess 121 and 403 really were doing it right all along. ;D

[cmcollier]

Feb 2, 2009 21:56:47 GMT -5 WebBoss said:

Collier, thanks for that long post. You did a great job summing up a lot of first due needs that unfortunately all end up over looked.

My take on Quints is that you're either going to run as a Ladder or as an Engine. By Burlington County's newest radio policy, Quints aren't even supposed to be dispatched as such. The function should be dispatched, and everyone knows that a Quint can be either - or.

The theory behind having a quint is to have a dual role rig that can be either a ladder truck or an engine. Unfortunately, a lot of the rigs are actually lack luster in both.

Especially in areas such as Tabernacle where ladder trucks are far and few between, the rig should be (IMO) a ladder truck first that could act as a pumper if need be.

BTW - Congrats to 181 on getting off the QUINT bandwagon - it's nice to see their new rig as LADDER 1815. I guess 121 and 403 really were doing it right all along. ;D

I agree, Quints should be EITHER ladder OR engine. If staffed with 6 firefighters it is possible to do both tasks, but I don't think either of them will be done exceptionally well if trying to do both. The officer can only do so much and one of the two tasks is going to go unsupervised.

As far as Burlington County dispatching the quint as an engine or ladder, I think thats great. You can be thinking on the way there about what will be expected of you upon arrival. Size-up begins way before you arrive. This is especially helpful for the officer, being an engine or ladder cuts the amount of things for the boss to think about in half. That being said, your assignment can always be changed. If you were going as an engine and the ladder is stuck in traffic or something you may have to do truck work upon arrival and need to be ready for that.

[Bossa]

Feb 2, 2009 21:56:47 GMT -5 WebBoss said:

Collier, thanks for that long post. You did a great job summing up a lot of first due needs that unfortuantely all end up over looked.

My take on Quints is that you're either going to run as a Ladder or as an Engine. By Burlington County's newest radio policy, Quints aren't even supposed to be dispatched as such. The function should be dispatched, and everyone knows that a Quint can be either - or.

The theory behind having a quint is to have a dual role rig that can be either a ladder truck or an engine. Unfortuantely, a lot of the rigs are actually lack luster in both.

Especially in areas such as Tabernacle where ladder trucks are far and few between, the rig should be (IMO) a ladder truck first that could act as a pumper if need be.

BTW - Congrats to 181 on getting off the QUINT bandwagon - it's nice to see their new rig as LADDER 1815. I guess 121 and 403 really were doing it right all along. ;D

HAHA... 4035 was by book definition a quint, however, to us it was the ladder. That being said, we did what we needed to. This was 403's first out peice from 1996 until we merged companies in 2006, so if we were first due, we would lay in, pull lines and do engine work, and rely on the engine behind us to take up the truck work. It all depended on the call.
If victims were involved, we went right to work on the search, with whoever was behind us pulling a line to make sure we got the water we needed....

Damn, I am gonna miss that truck. We took her out of service yesterday to prep her for sale and the new truck should be here within 2 weeks...

[soon2bfdny]

I agree, Quints should be EITHER ladder OR engine. If staffed with 6 firefighters it is possible to do both tasks, but I don't think either of them will be done exceptionally well if trying to do both. The officer can only do so much and one of the two tasks is going to go unsupervised.

As far as Burlington County dispatching the quint as an engine or ladder, I think thats great. You can be thinking on the way there about what will be expected of you upon arrival. Size-up begins way before you arrive. This is especially helpful for the officer, being an engine or ladder cuts the amount of things for the boss to think about in half. That being said, your assignment can always be changed. If you were going as an engine and the ladder is stuck in traffic or something you may have to do truck work upon arrival and need to be ready for that. [/quote]

so you are saying, if the truck is stuck in traffic, an engine should do truck work if they arrive first? i dont think that makes sense cause do you think when that truck gets there, are they going to pick up a hose and do engine work. i think if you are an engine, then you should stay an engine and give the people trapped inside the best chance to survive by means of an aggresive interior attack. once you start messing with assignments then thats when you run into trouble

[cmcollier]

you are right, im sorry... so if you pull up first due to a house fire in the rescue truck you must due rescue work. stretch the preconected O cutters and get in there

[soon2bfdny]

no need to be sorry man. these are just opinions. but i woud have the rescue be the RIT. not sure what O connectors are though

[WebBoss]

Feb 3, 2009 14:58:50 GMT -5 Bossa said:

Feb 2, 2009 21:56:47 GMT -5 WebBoss said:

Collier, thanks for that long post. You did a great job summing up a lot of first due needs that unfortuantely all end up over looked.

My take on Quints is that you're either going to run as a Ladder or as an Engine. By Burlington County's newest radio policy, Quints aren't even supposed to be dispatched as such. The function should be dispatched, and everyone knows that a Quint can be either - or.

The theory behind having a quint is to have a dual role rig that can be either a ladder truck or an engine. Unfortuantely, a lot of the rigs are actually lack luster in both.

Especially in areas such as Tabernacle where ladder trucks are far and few between, the rig should be (IMO) a ladder truck first that could act as a pumper if need be.

BTW - Congrats to 181 on getting off the QUINT bandwagon - it's nice to see their new rig as LADDER 1815. I guess 121 and 403 really were doing it right all along. ;D

HAHA... 4035 was by book definition a quint, however, to us it was the ladder. That being said, we did what we needed to. This was 403's first out peice from 1996 until we merged companies in 2006, so if we were first due, we would lay in, pull lines and do engine work, and rely on the engine behind us to take up the truck work. It all depended on the call.
If victims were involved, we went right to work on the search, with whoever was behind us pulling a line to make sure we got the water we needed....

Damn, I am gonna miss that truck. We took her out of service yesterday to prep her for sale and the new truck should be here within 2 weeks...

I'm with you there brother... we did the same exact thing with 1215 since 1989. (Well since 1994 for me personally). It's ashame to see 4035 going so far away... what a great rig that was. I remember a few years back comming across you guys at a job on Railroad Ave and taking the pump for Drangula since manpower was at a premium. Exactly the same as Beverly's from the cab back... just in an ugly red color. Sadly, even though you're new rig looks great, it probably won't be half as capable.

[voyager9]

Feb 3, 2009 20:52:02 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

so you are saying, if the truck is stuck in traffic, an engine should do truck work if they arrive first? i dont think that makes sense cause do you think when that truck gets there, are they going to pick up a hose and do engine work. i think if you are an engine, then you should stay an engine and give the people trapped inside the best chance to survive by means of an aggresive interior attack. once you start messing with assignments then thats when you run into trouble

What the crew does on arrival is dictated by more things then just what apparatus they arrived on. Ignoring Quints for a second, a crew from the Engine may immediately start an interior search if there are victims involved even though this is technically "truck work". Similarly the crew from the Ladder may pull a line if conditions warrant. Basically the assignment of the crews has to be flexible based on conditions, manpower, and other factors.

This is probably less true in the larger cities that staff enough apparatus to guarantee manpower and are able to have more strict roles based on station/apparatus.

[voyager9]

Feb 3, 2009 23:38:58 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

no need to be sorry man. these are just opinions. but i woud have the rescue be the RIT. not sure what O connectors are though

Um.... huh? Are you saying that if the first in apparatus is a Rescue then they should stick with their assignment as RIT?

"Hey, we're the RIT, just waiting for everyone else to get here... they'd better hurry up though, there's a lot of fire and that victim isn't going to rescue himself"

Rescue would pick up "truck work" in that case using whatever they have available on their apparatus.

[voyager9]

Jan 31, 2009 1:10:59 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

any departments out there that have quints, do you guys have a policy to determine if you perform as an engine or as a ladder company if you are first due to a fire. considering you have a fire with a report of victims trapped

To answer the original question:
In the scenario posted the role performed by the first in crew would be dictated by the conditions on arrival (fire, victim) then the apparatus (quint). Depending on the volume of fire and conditions the crew would probably immediate do a search for the victim (truck work).

We do have rough policies for what function the quint will take but its usually dictated by the first-in reports whether they act like an Engine and lay in or like a Ladder take up position with the aerial.

Overall I like the Quint concept if only from the fact that I know I won't get stuck in a position where I need something. They do suffer from the "Jack of all, master of none"-ism but in general I think the benefits outweigh the drawback as long as they're known and accounted for.

What I hate to see is when the concept is abused to justify manpower reductions. You hear of cities going with an "All Quint" fleet and shutting down a dual-Engine/Ladder house with 8-10 guys and replacing it with a single Quint with 6..

[cmcollier]

What I was saying is that I like that Burlington County dispatches quints as either engines or ladders. This way you have some idea of what you will be doing upon arrival and can start your size up on the way there. But, since you are a quint, and you have the tools (and hopefully training) to do either engine or truck work your assignment could be changed if need be.

Where I work if a rescue company arrives before the first or second due truck they operate as a truck. They have the same basic tools a truck would: halligans, hooks, can, irons, hydraram, saws, rope, etc.

[fireman1190]

this is all a very good debate.

I'd like to remind people that many 100foot aerials and tower ladders are technically Quints too, but are almost always referred to and operated as a Truck.

I agree with one of the first answers... that Search & Rescue is our primary responsibility on a structure that may be occupied.
I must admit, the idea of searching a structure without a hoseline is dangerous, especially when considering the construction and contents of todays dwellings. This problem is usually overcome by skills and training but it has to be a judgement call. Definitely worth it if theres someone inside though.

Collier pointed out that truck companies can help contain the fire with a can, by closing doors, etc. However, in many of todays homes with open floorplans and cathedral-style ceillings, that is not very effective.

Part of me feels like we should just hit it hard with water first, rather than search without a hose, because in the meantime the fire would be rapidly intensifying.
This is a risk/cost/benefit style problem. The victim could be saved if we put the fire out. The victim might be saved quicker if we do a search, or a VES. But they might not be. And if we don't find them right away, the fire will get out of control.

How do you make that call?

[Bossa]

Even though this is a great debate, in our county, dedicated truck, engine or rescue companies do not exist. We have to have our personnel trained in all aspects of the job.

You have to put the people where you need them, regardless of what type of apparatus they are riding.

[soon2bfdny]

Feb 4, 2009 10:16:42 GMT -5 voyager9 said:

Feb 3, 2009 23:38:58 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

no need to be sorry man. these are just opinions. but i woud have the rescue be the RIT. not sure what O connectors are though

Um.... huh? Are you saying that if the first in apparatus is a Rescue then they should stick with their assignment as RIT?

"Hey, we're the RIT, just waiting for everyone else to get here... they'd better hurry up though, there's a lot of fire and that victim isn't going to rescue himself"

Rescue would pick up "truck work" in that case using whatever they have available on their apparatus.

let me know what department in burlington county responds first due with a rescue? obviously i was talking about when the rescue gets there they should become the RIT and the ladder company can now assist with the truck work.

anyway i was originally talking about engine and ladder work so idont even know why rescue talk was even involved. rescues should only stick to the highway work unless they can manned with a fully qualified crew that knows there tools inside and out. ie hi-angle, low-angle, confined space. depends whats on your rescue. if not then you should just drive your own personal car to the scene and then annouce to everyone " THE RESCUE IS HERE "