Quints

[soon2bfdny]

Feb 4, 2009 17:03:56 GMT -5 fireman1190 said:

this is all a very good debate.

I'd like to remind people that many 100foot aerials and tower ladders are technically Quints too, but are almost always referred to and operated as a Truck.

I agree with one of the first answers... that Search & Rescue is our primary responsibility on a structure that may be occupied.
I must admit, the idea of searching a structure without a hoseline is dangerous, especially when considering the construction and contents of todays dwellings. This problem is usually overcome by skills and training but it has to be a judgement call. Definitely worth it if theres someone inside though.

Collier pointed out that truck companies can help contain the fire with a can, by closing doors, etc. However, in many of todays homes with open floorplans and cathedral-style ceillings, that is not very effective.

Part of me feels like we should just hit it hard with water first, rather than search without a hose, because in the meantime the fire would be rapidly intensifying.
This is a risk/cost/benefit style problem. The victim could be saved if we put the fire out. The victim might be saved quicker if we do a search, or a VES. But they might not be. And if we don't find them right away, the fire will get out of control.

How do you make that call?

plus the longer you wait to put water on a fire in a dwelling with some kind of light weight truss system, then the more dangerous and risky a situation you are creating for your crew and whatever victims are in there. ourselves first, victims second

[fireman1190]

Feb 4, 2009 18:29:42 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

Feb 4, 2009 10:16:42 GMT -5 voyager9 said:

rescues should only stick to the highway work unless they can manned with a fully qualified crew that knows there tools inside and out. ie hi-angle, low-angle, confined space. depends whats on your rescue. if not then you should just drive your own personal car to the scene and then annouce to everyone " THE RESCUE IS HERE "

come on. a Rescue is worth more on a fire than just as a crew-carrier. For one, the crew will step off the truck with airpacks. and don't forget other things such as handtools, torches, saws, etc that can be used for truck work. And stokes baskets, etc, for RIT ops. Many Rescues have a cascade system too, and some carry ground ladders.

No one should be responding Rescues first due to structure fires but they certainly serve a purpose. If you have a crew, bring it. The only exception would be if yours is the only Rescue in the area. In that case leave it available for MVA's

[rp42]

where does 2 in 2 out come into play? As the first arriving rig, you would need 8 guys to due both roles! how many trucks have eight seats? its cramped with 5 guys in a 6 man cab where i run out of. If you arrive 1st you are an engine. If there are people trapped put a line in service and have the boss search and if the backup guy can search, do it too. remember if the fire goes out most of you problems go away. Quints are nice, but we are there to put the fire out.

Not busting any balls but does the FDNY have any quints??

[rp42]

Feb 4, 2009 10:25:46 GMT -5 voyager9 said:

Jan 31, 2009 1:10:59 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

any departments out there that have quints, do you guys have a policy to determine if you perform as an engine or as a ladder company if you are first due to a fire. considering you have a fire with a report of victims trapped

To answer the original question:
In the scenario posted the role performed by the first in crew would be dictated by the conditions on arrival (fire, victim) then the apparatus (quint). Depending on the volume of fire and conditions the crew would probably immediate do a search for the victim (truck work).

We do have rough policies for what function the quint will take but its usually dictated by the first-in reports whether they act like an Engine and lay in or like a Ladder take up position with the aerial.

Overall I like the Quint concept if only from the fact that I know I won't get stuck in a position where I need something. They do suffer from the "Jack of all, master of none"-ism but in general I think the benefits outweigh the drawback as long as they're known and accounted for.

What I hate to see is when the concept is abused to justify manpower reductions. You hear of cities going with an "All Quint" fleet and shutting down a dual-Engine/Ladder house with 8-10 guys and replacing it with a single Quint with 6..

Every truck can't go everything. We need to remember the basics of firefighting. Get down and put the fire out. Maybe I'm just an engine guy...

Soon2be nice comment about the pov comment

[rp42]

Feb 4, 2009 18:29:42 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

Feb 4, 2009 10:16:42 GMT -5 voyager9 said:

Um.... huh? Are you saying that if the first in apparatus is a Rescue then they should stick with their assignment as RIT?

"Hey, we're the RIT, just waiting for everyone else to get here... they'd better hurry up though, there's a lot of fire and that victim isn't going to rescue himself"

Rescue would pick up "truck work" in that case using whatever they have available on their apparatus.

let me know what department in burlington county responds first due with a rescue? obviously i was talking about when the rescue gets there they should become the RIT and the ladder company can now assist with the truck work.

anyway i was originally talking about engine and ladder work so idont even know why rescue talk was even involved. rescues should only stick to the highway work unless they can manned with a fully qualified crew that knows there tools inside and out. ie hi-angle, low-angle, confined space. depends whats on your rescue. if not then you should just drive your own personal car to the scene and then annouce to everyone " THE RESCUE IS HERE "

Pittsburg used to have "Squad Companies" where 6-7 guys would respond in a Suburban and fill in the holes.

[cmcollier]

I have personally been the company officer on Mt. Laurel's rescue when we were first due to a report of a fire in a house. The ladder was out on a water leak and they called for the rescue for extra salvage equipment. While en-route we were diverted to this dwelling run. It was before the new dispatch protocols in Burl Co and it turned out to be a defective appliance. In that instance we had no choice but to act as a truck, MTL's rescue does not have a pump or hose. I'm not saying that pulling up first due in the rescue is the best case scenario, just that it does happen and those on the rescue should be prepared for more than just vehicle extrication.

As for the 2 in 2 out, the chauffeur and the OV would be the 2 out until the arrival of the second due piece as I stated in my initial response.

No, FDNY does not have any quints. I was a volunteer in MTL as well as a paid part time firefighter in Wildwood and North Wildwood. All 3 of those depts have quints (the same model actually) and they do work very well.

[papacheese]

Before things get too out of control here, rescue companies have functions to perform at fires, such as assist with the second line, search and rescue, ventilation...in essence, fill in the proverbial gaps. Do some research and find out what FDNY's rescue company firefighters do at a working fire...aside from RIT.

Speaking of first due rescues, we were exactly in that situation at a working job in Delran years ago; by fate, happenstance, and karma, our rescue arrived first (talk about feeling naked without a nozzle). We did not, however, twiddle our thumbs and wait for an engine to get there before doing anything. We performed a thorough 360, located the seat of the fire, confirmed that all occupants were accounted for, then helped stretch the first due engine's attack and back up lines. Hey, things went pretty well since we had done some of the important legwork prior to the first line getting into service - no muss, no fuss, and (with a well-deserved tip o the helmet to the Burlington City and Township gangs), one the the very best handled fires I've ever attended.

[ENG27SQ]

Feb 4, 2009 21:43:21 GMT -5 rp42 said:

Not busting any balls but does the FDNY have any quints??

I don't think so, I'm 99.9% sure they run dedicated Engine,Rescue,Squad and Truck Companies..

[soon2bfdny]

Feb 5, 2009 23:27:27 GMT -5 ENG27SQ said:

Feb 4, 2009 21:43:21 GMT -5 rp42 said:

Not busting any balls but does the FDNY have any quints??

I don't think so, I'm 99.9% sure they run dedicated Engine,Rescue,Squad and Truck Companies..

i know i've seen FDNY pictures of ladder towers and regular ladder trucks but im almost positive they are not quints. what i dont get is what is the difference between the squads and engine companys. they both look like engines

[ENG27SQ]

Feb 6, 2009 15:36:05 GMT -5 soon2bfdny said:

Feb 5, 2009 23:27:27 GMT -5 ENG27SQ said:

I don't think so, I'm 99.9% sure they run dedicated Engine,Rescue,Squad and Truck Companies..

i know i've seen FDNY pictures of ladder towers and regular ladder trucks but im almost positive they are not quints. what i dont get is what is the difference between the squads and engine companys. they both look like engines

Engine companies do just that, Engine company operations.

Squad companies do, Fire/EMS/Hazmat/Rope Rescue and I believe Water is the fifth key, if I'm wrong please correct me.

[FirstDue312]

They are both engines. Thats part of the purpose of squads. Notice they are PARTS of squads. Theyre are the jack of all trades, master of none, without support. Just like any other apparatus. Hence why there are box dispatches, so that gaps can be filled.

[rp42]

Feb 7, 2009 3:25:55 GMT -5 FirstDue312 said:

They are both engines. Thats part of the purpose of squads. Notice they are PARTS of squads. Theyre are the jack of all trades, master of none, without support. Just like any other apparatus. Hence why there are box dispatches, so that gaps can be filled.

So they are a Quint with out a ladder?