Pet peeve - why do we do this?

[breakingsomemirror]

So, I heard it again the other day and it's driving me crazy. Let me lay this out and let me know what you guys think.

Why do some departments or I guess in some cases, crews, insist on calling an IC during the middle of an incident and saying, "Hey Chief, we're at (such and such location) and can come in if you need us."

Example, the other day Dist. 40 had a dwelling fire. Reported to be a fire in the attic and the first due had light smoke showing. The 40 Chief sounded like he had everything under control, giving orders, having the crews investigate, staging a MA (mutual aid) engine at the hydrant. Then out of nowhere, another MA ladder from another department that wasn't dispatched calls him and says, "Uh Chief, we're on Rt. 206 in your local if you need us." First, if he needed you, he would have called. Second, Rt. 206 doesn't even run through Dist. 40!

Last year I remember an MVA in Dist. 25 when the vehicle went into the dwelling. From what I understand, it was chaotic but controlled for awhile and then in the middle of that incident, a MA company comes on and says, "Hey Chief, we're on the Mt. Holly by-pass if you need us." Oh, you mean the Mt. Holly by-pass that's two towns and about 10 to 15 minutes away, with traffic that time of day?

As a former Chief and current officer, I have just one thing to say. STOP IT! There's a word for something like that, FREELANCING! When I am in the middle of an incident, the last thing I need is someone calling me and asking for an invite to the party.

When you are in Command, you have to be focusing on a million things. As part of that, you have to quickly formulate a plan on how you are going to deal with the situation, using the resources you have available. If I don't have enough resources, then I WILL CALL FOR THEM! If I'm good, then I'll not call for them. Having you call in the middle of chaos and advise that you're available and want to come play doesn't help me.

The County Chief's have gone a long way to try and simplify the grid systems and try and get people to stop playing the, "I hate you this week so I'm taking you off my grids" game. The county has come a long way at streamlining and better organizing the grids. That being said, if a Chief needs more resources, all he has to do is contact Central and ask for the next alarm or in the case of a specialty unit (haz-mat, technical rescue, etc.), request one from Central. They have it set up in their system on who gets called for what. It's really not that complicated and shouldn't be.

I know some Chief officers feel bad and say, "Yeah, come on in." Personally, I'd tell them, "Um, no thanks. Stay back and protect your residents and if I need you, I'll call for you." However, that makes some people mad. Whatever.

That's all. I was just wondering if I'm the only one.

Have a great week everyone and stay safe!

[papacheese]

I am in complete, total, 1000% agreement with your opinion, mirrors; a long time ago, it was considered absolutely crass to openly beg to go to a fire...it simply wasn't done - at all.

I also want to underscore how inappropriate it is to interrupt an IC's thought and command process with nonsense like this....it's hard enough getting your on-scene resources organized without having to deal with an unneeded distraction.

Here's a theory: this "we're in the area" gambit started as the number of fires decreased..in other words, if there's no action in MY town, then let's find some in YOUR town.

While there are probably very valid exceptions to a strict policy, I gotta believe that 95% of these are due to boredom more than anything else.

[hp4l]

I completely agree with what has been said so far. This is why every department in the County has made their own response grids up to the 4th alarm I believe, as well as a list in order of which trucks need to come in and in what order. If a company asks the IC if they are needed, and the IC feels obligated to bring them in, designate them as the cover company or stage them. See how many times they ask to come in after that.

[canman]

i agree with you guys but the reason why this still happend is because there are those chiefs that tell these guys to come on in and play, and once that happens it justsnowballs to the next job and so on until we are at the point where we are asking ourselves why we hear this being done....

[WebBoss]

I agree... to a point...

It all depends on the actual situation at hand.

Taking the D25 MVA a year ago... I know that when the incident commander requested from central the closest units that can handle structural shoring, 272 was not dispatched. Beings that 272 has the proper equipment, supplies, and trained individuals - I (meaning me personally) called central and volunteered since we were closer then who central originally called for. Central confirmed with the CP, he said ok, so we went. (BTW - left a crew back to cover the primary area too)

That is a prime example of when it's not a bad thing to volunteer.

Chiefs can spell out all the grids they want. I look at them all day long and alot of which make no scense at all. Half these chiefs don't even go by their grids... they make special calls left and right which defeats the purpose of having grids. Then you get Jesus Christ and the Fire Coordinating Saints on your incident, and they bypass the local grids and force the structural task forces down everyones throats.

We can bitch and cry all we want about stuff like this... it will never change.

[papacheese]

Canman ...I agree with your thoughts; some of this is simply bad habits being reinforced by chiefs, so why would it cease and desist?

Boss: the situation you describe is (IMHO) wholly different than the "we're in the area" transmission, especially in light of the circumstances. If I were the IC in that situation, i would most certainly take advantage of the offer. A bread and butter structure though, is a different animal.

In my post, I did mention there being exceptions...in the event that another unit happens to be physically closer to an incident and it's timely arrival at the scene could make a sigificant impact on the outcome, then by all means get in there. What I have a problem with is units which are nowhere close to the incident or seem to make a regular habit of cruising the border, especially if the incident sounds enticing.

I have absolutely no problem with a designated, fully-staffed RIT or first alarm company heading towards a neighboring mutual aid's call that they would ordinarily be dispatched to...that's just heads-up thinking compared to "I'm bored - let's go combustion cruising".

[voyager9]

One urban legend I had heard regarding this was that there could be legal consequences if an IC turned down assistance should the incident go bad. I'm not sure if that holds any water but in today's litigious society I can see some lawyer running with that..

for example: A neighboring engine company calls the IC and offers assistance and the IC turns down that offer. The incident turns out to be a total loss (financially) and some scumbag lawyer convinces the family that the fire company didn't do everything they could. He pulls the radio tapes and on the stand asks the IC "Would the outcome have been different had you accepted aid from this Company?"

I completely agree with the above posts that the behavior is juvenile, unprofessional, and unsafe. It's the type of action that chiefs should vehemently discourage. At the same time, if I'm the IC and I think not accepting aid could come back to bite me I may take the legally safer road and accept their help then throw them in staging, manpower, or whatever.

[papacheese]

Unfortunately I have to agree with you, voyager...although we all despise the law suit crazy environment we live in today, it's reality and we should deal with it the best we can.

To me, the litmus test is this: "Will allowing them to respond in make a significant difference in the outcome?" If the answer is yes, then go with it. If the answer is no, then either refuse the offer or, as someone suggested earlier, direct them into staging.

There are plenty of scenarios in which I'd feel compelled to allow them to respond in...in particular, a high life hazard situation. A car fire? Please...99% of the time the thing's totalled before ANYONE gets there.

[Reverend]

There are example after example to support both arguments. Here is how I think of it. If you are truly close and available at an actual location, come on in. As a matter of fact I espect you to respond if for instance (you are on rt 130 going to the ESTC and Willingboro gets an mva rescue at Bev-Ran & RT 130) that is our job. The buffing of jobs should be reserved for the photo unit and not an entire company. This entire blog couldve been avoided if people would "DO THE RIGHT THING"

[breakingsomemirror]

I agree with the good Reverend, there are some good arguments brought up on both sides. However, I still feel that it should be kept to a MINIMUM at best.

I could see an argument if you were driving through a town, in the case say of going to the ESTC, and heard something or came across something, to offer your services or even go into service. I'm not going to pass an MVA, car fire or even something greater just because it's "not my town". I feel I still have a duty to protect and assist, no matter where I am.

Granted, I will still say that depending on the size of the town, I would still hope you were close. For example, if you by 361 in Mount Laurel and a building fire came on Rt. 73, that's a stretch to say, "I'm in the area".

As for the incident in D25, well, I'll respectfully disagree. I don't want to get into a fight about it because if I try and argue, I know I'm going to get called "jealous". I purposely didn't want to "name names" because I didn't want to get into this tired old argument.

I was listening to the call and know what I heard. I talked to many people who were there and said and heard the same thing. My point in that case was Central has had predetermined agreements with out of county MUA companies that state that a Camden County technical unit will respond to incidents in the lower half of Burlington County and a Mercer county technical team will respond to incidents in the northern half. It's in there for a reason: to simplify the process and keep some sense of order.

One local department has 14 Haz-Mat technicians and a trailer full of equipment. If they hear another local have a Haz-Mat call, should they contact Central and tell them so that they can call the IC or should they just let them stick to the plan that is in the grids and when an IC requests assistance with such a call, the County DOH is contacted and they respond? I think the latter would be appropriate.

In my humble opinion, as a Chief Officer, you should know what resources are available to you in the county, or even out of the county. You should ESPECIALLY know your MUA companies and their capabilities. If you are a Chief and don't like who the county has agreements with in terms of specialty or technical assistance, then find out who does and add them to your grids. It's that simple.

I think some departments have already done this. For example, I believe D90 has agreements in place with some Bucks County departments for MUA for fire assignments and I believe they were working on the same thing with technical rescue as well. From the presentation that was given at the County Chief's Officer Seminar a year or two ago, it seems like Bucks County has their act together when it comes to technical rescue and I applaud D90 for reaching out to them.

OK, that's a little off topic. Hope everyone stays safe and dry. Take care.

[WebBoss]

Oct 28, 2008 9:12:24 GMT -5 breakingsomemirror said:

As for the incident in D25, well, I'll respectfully disagree. I don't want to get into a fight about it because if I try and argue, I know I'm going to get called "jealous". I purposely didn't want to "name names" because I didn't want to get into this tired old argument.

I was listening to the call and know what I heard. I talked to many people who were there and said and heard the same thing.

It is/was never my intention to argue either about this incident. However, I have heard this very same conversation from a multitude of people from the 22/25 area who said the call was "jumped."

The majority of the time, this is just shrugged off. Personally, I couldn't care less what people think... unless someone says we did a bad job... then I pay close attention.

Regardless of what you or anyone else "heard"... you must have missed hearing Rescue 272 being dispatched by tone, by central, on the F1 band. This was following CP25 advising central they had a structural stability problem, and shortly there after central advising them that 272 had people and equipment to handle their problem and CP25 telling central to send Rescue 272.

This isn't watchdesk. I would appreciate you checking your facts before posting anything that shines another company in bad light.

[ENG27SQ]

Maybe my opinion doesn't matter here being a 19 year old but here goes because I see it hear it everyday and see it quite often.

Squirreling and "Jumping" calls is something that will never end, here in this fine county or anywhere else. But when the next due town has to handle it, yes that's mutual aid, to an EXTENT. When your (as the Mutual Aid Company or a company 5 towns over) are just trying to force your way into someones town, that starts the whole "I dont like you this week, your off my grids" crap.

BUT! When the township officials or even residents find out they weren't in town ready to do their JOB in said town which is to PROTECT and SERVE their own township and a call come in their OWN town, due to the fact that they were bored and wanted to "assist" on another call, because they hear the IC request the all hands or they upgrade to a rescue assignment and they all get woodies and just "need" to assist is going to get everything in a twist.

As someone wrote and I've seen many times, grids are in place for a reason. Granted, as Webboss stated, some chiefs don't follow their own grids and modify it as the call happens, that is their choice, I'm not going to say anything cause it's not my ground as it is. If you are needed, you'll be called, if your not needed, you won't be, it is that simple.


I'll get off my little soapbox.

Now back to your regular scheduled programming.

[WebBoss]

You are all correct about grids and what not.

However, I always thought the best way to have grids would be to simply state what you wanted by resource type (ie: 3 engines, 2 ladders) and dispatch the closest resources. Still giving the chief the ability to predetermine what his responses will be, however eliminating the "Buddy-Boxes."

I guess we're getting a little off topic though.

[FirstDue312]

Closest doesn't always mean quickest or most reliable though... Thats the nature of the beast. Ideally your closest mutual aid company would be reliable or have quick response times or a full compliment of well trained and qualified firefighters, but we don't live in a perfect world.

[breakingsomemirror]

Let me first start off by saying to Fire29Rescue that don't believe just because you're just 19 doesn't mean you don't have something to add. I know some 19 year olds who are more mature than 39 year olds! Then again, remember your age and try and listen and observe as much as you can. Please don't ever become one of these guys who's seen one or two jobs and suddenly becomes a "big time" firefighter! Those are the guys who get themselves and unfortunately, many others hurt. Anyhow, eyes and ears open, mouth shut and you'll learn a lot. Good luck!

That being said, I think you hit the nail on the head. Freelancing and squirreling calls will continue to happen. The main reason being there's no accountability for their actions. If there were, maybe things would change.

Yes, some Chief's don't follow their own grids. Sometimes, it's for a very valid reason. Perhaps they know the "usual" MA company has an event that day, like a day at the ESTC doing burns. He may know they are light on crews and decides, upon dispatch, to have Central add a different company, off the grids as it were.

Whatever the case, I don't believe this is the same thing as the "freelancing" that I was referring too. On the same token, I would hope that the Chief doesn't stray from the grids too often. This could hurt his credibility, especially with his line officers. I mean, you can't tell people one thing, put it in writing and then consistently not follow it! Definite credibility issues here. There is a time and place and hopefully, it would be kept to a minimum.

As for the other comment about the Watchdesk, well, I'm biting my tongue. I know this board tries to stop things from getting out of hand and I never intended it to. In fact, if you notice, AGAIN, that I never mentioned any departments by name or number so that I would NOT shine another company in a bad light. I just said that a MA company called the IC on the radio and gave them their location, which was a couple of towns away and said they were available if he needed him. This is INDEED fact! Everybody heard it, not just me.

If you're telling me this didn't happen and multiple people imagined it, then I guess I'm just crazy. The fact remains that somebody heard the call, didn't get dispatched, called Central who then called the IC and asked it they could come. It's just a longer route to the same thing. Central has all that information in their system and most dispatchers in the county are smart enough to know who has what. If they felt it was warranted, then I'm sure they would have advised the IC, not a third party call trying to advise him of the same.

I apologize to the board that SOMEONE else, perhaps with a guilty conscience, decided to take it further. Again, I purposely didn't name names to avoid this. I'd like to say more but I know it's battle's just not worth it.

I just know that I have never "jumped" a call. I can't honestly say "never" would I because as I've learned from reading these posts, it may happen someday. I'm just going to have to wait for that day and hope that I make the right call. Until then, I know I can look myself in the mirror. Unfortunately, some departments take down all there mirrors so they never really take a good look at themselves. Pity because maybe if they did, they'd see what others see and it ain't good.

Thanks everybody and stay safe!

[gotwork]

Well, being that my department was brought into this maybe I'll end it. Sometimes I think there is situations when offering assistance is very welcomed. I have had a few offers that I have openly accepted. There is a Pemberton company that used to be notorious for it. The funny thing is everyone said yes, bitched, but when you saw them perform you could never complain. A class act crew each time. There are some logical things to think of, at least I do. If an engine is needed, it is probably now. So if I have Eng X saying hey we have crew or are near by, and my grid is Eng XX then I need to consider: Is Eng XX going to definitley get out and what is their response time? Eng X is crewed and ready to roll, will they be able to assist me sooner? Then you make a decision. Then you could say it is a "special" type incident that you will need assistance with resources, manpower, whatever. You are preparing to call for the next resource in line, and another unit offers (key word offers) up and can fulfill your needs. Those same two questions apply for this as well.

I think the biggest issue is freelancing. Freelancing is just showing up and doing whatever you want to do and not taking or following orders. If you show up on your own and just start doing your thing, then that my friends is freelancing. Offering assistance to an IC in need of a resource and then being told yes or no is NOT freelancing.

I have been on both sides of this issue. On neither side did I feel pressured to make a decision. I made a decision based on what would help handle an incident. My department was passed over many times in nearby grids because we used to (4 years ago) only have the 2-7 engine (2 guys 7 days a week). We offer when and where we can assist in helping with an incident. Now other dept's know that we are extremely dependable and are now on many grids.

Mirror- I can respect you personally not liking it. And if your in command we'll be sure not to offer you help, call us if you want us. But to say you weren't calling anyone out, you knew we would know who you were talking about. Other members of the department you work for feel the same way about our department, and don't hold back their smart ass comments when we see them. It's all good. We have found a way to attract good quality membership and have become an excellent resource on many fronts. We will continue to get better by training harder than most if not all.

Problem Solved......

[breakingsomemirror]

Again, we will agree to disagree. I feel that by calling the IC, either direct or indirect through Central, a company is freelancing. You are potentially interrupting the individual at a time when he doesn't need the distractions. There are plans in place to deal with certain scenarios and by contacting direct, a company is circumventing those plans.

If we allow one company to do it, what's not to say another won't do it to? Now the next time there's a similar situation, with potentially the need for structural support, what happens if another county department, who happens to have training and equipment to do the same, gets on radio or calls Central? What's to stop every company that has some knowledge and training from doing it?

My point is, if one does, everyone potentially may want to do it. That just leads to sloppy fireground operations and the unwarranted traversing of the county by fire apparatus.

Now, to use your words, if a company were to show up at a mutual aid assignment and do something without direct orders or just do their own thing, would that be freelancing? How about if they started placing equipment and moving things around, without being given orders to do so, just because they felt it was "the right thing" to do. Is that freelancing? I believe it would be, by your definition, no? Interesting.

Again, this was in no way intended to attack any one department. What I call "freelancing" has been happening for years. I'll admit it, it happened by in D36 when I was there. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. Doesn't mean they were bad firefighters or are a bad department. I just didn't agree with it and I wish people would understand why it may not be the wisest thing to do.

Again, it's a pet peeve of mine. I started out saying that and I made it a point NOT to name names. The only people who would know were those involved. I kept it very respectful, IMHO. It was an individual from that department who decided to take it down the wrong road.

While I don't see the need to take shots at "my department" and the "smart ass comments", if it makes you feel good, go for it, Captain. I can't help what other guys say. If you have a problem with it, take it up with them. The same can be said of your guys as well. When it's happened, I've handled it. Unfortunately, it's happened so many times, it's gotten old and now I just have learned to ignore them.

OK, enough of this. I wish you all well. Just try and think about the original point was and try and learn from it. That's what this is all about, right?

Take care and stay safe.

[gotwork]

Yes we will agree to disagree on this one. I understand your point, and agree with you on some occasions. I am sure you could also see that there are also occasions where it may be useful. I did not take any shot at your department, just some that have made comments questioning our abilities and services. We work extremely hard to be highly proficient at what we say we can provide, as does your department. You are in a good progressive department with the means and resources to keep progressing. My department has found a way to rebuild from our old situation and have found the means and resources to get it done also. You may not understand what it took for us to prove that we are a valuable resource because your department didn't have that issue.

Please stay safe and progressive. It will only make this county safer if we all do it!!

[pickemoff]

Why is it that everybody has to prove that they can do this and they can do that and why did they do this instead of that. ;D

[ENG27SQ]

Nov 5, 2008 10:27:16 GMT -5 pickemoff said:

Why is it that everybody has to prove that they can do this and they can do that and why did they do this instead of that. ;D

Simple.

Some take the job as they have to be the best (now don't get me wrong we all want to do the job the best and safest way we can without injury to ourselves or a member of the public, but some take that way out of context) and their ego takes off, along with their head size. This is supposed to be a brotherhood, and it seems that some have seem to have forgotten that.

This is not s shot at ANY department, its my true feeling on this issue, nation wide.