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Post by papacheese on Mar 12, 2008 7:44:48 GMT -5
I'd like to start a series of discussions regarding specific tactics and the risk management decisions they present. Whether you're an officer, seasoned vet, newbie, or raw boot, knowing the HOW and WHY of a procedure, and more importantly it's limitations, is a vital piece of information. First up, the type of fire that never fails to make the hair on the back of my neck stand up: basement fires. Hp4l and and I were chatting yesterday and this particular topic came up; both of us agreed we had no problem fighting any fire on the same level or above, but the thought of entering what is in essence a confined space via a chimney is enough to give me the willies. While not having the exact stats at my fingertips, basement fires present an extremely high hazard to us, witness Jim Heenan in Verga, Kevin Appuzzio in East Franklin, and the recent LODD in Lower Chichester, PA. Peruse the NIOSH site and the idea begins to form that being inside a burning basement is at best a dicey proposition, and at worse, a prime killer of firefighters. Unlike Division 1, 2, or attic jobs, a basement typically has one entrance which is limited in size and usually not in the best shape, windows that you can't dive out of, and walls made of heat absorbing and reflecting materials. Add natural gas and oil as well as a ton of accumulated junk and probably a host of hazardous materials, and to me, we have a situation ripe for disaster. I'll start the discussion with my personal opinion: I would go to any length necessary to avoid committing troops to a obvious basement job PROVIDED there is no confirmed life safety threat. Most (but not all) basements usually have windows of some sort and sometimes an outside entrance...prime places to shove a hand line into in order to hopefully knock it back enough to allow us to assess conditions and if favorable, cautiously enter to make the final extinguishment. Another option should windows be out of the question is to "dig a hole" right by a door entrance and put the nozzle in there. Mindlessly charging through the door and down the steps is (IMHO) an absolute no-no of the highest order..this is clearly a case for going Transitional at the outset, then changing as conditions develop. Obviously it will never be this simple; each dwelling and structure has it's own unique characteristics. To me, what's most important is RECOGNIZING the inherent bad karma in these specific situations and taking prudent steps to reduce the more obvious risks. Again, basic risk management: risk versus gain. (Note: bragging rights are not considered a legimate gain) Let's get a discussion going....what are your thoughts?  |
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Post by thelurker on Mar 12, 2008 9:04:01 GMT -5
I see what you are saying, however I feel that the call of charging the steps should be based on the amount or perceived amount of fire in the basement. I have made at least 5 or 6 basement fires at this point, and only 1 was really that ass-kicking dangerous. That 1 was really off and running, and the nozzle man and I almost had a serious problem. I went to a class about basement fires that was given my a retired Philly Batt. Chief. He also suggested the busting the window method for determining the quantity of fire in the basement. Aggressive interior attack can be very dangerous, and ventilation needs to be a primary concern if we are going to attempt the attack. Also, a good interview of the occupant (if available) to determine the location of the basement access in relation to the entry points is important. I have seen basements where the entry is by lifting the pantry floor and would never be found under fire conditions by searching firefighters. In summary, basement fires are dangerous, but I think we should still attack basement fires if we can do it relatively safely. We should also consider an exterior attack with a large caliber line for knockdown/heat reduction prior to entry.
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Post by FirstDue312 on Mar 12, 2008 10:42:46 GMT -5
I think it just needs to be coordination between the IC, the Ops, and the initial attack team. Make sure there's a good size up, try and glean as much information from the homeowner. And if you cant or the size up is proving hairy, whats so wrong with busting out the basement windows and shoving a 2 1/2 down there and soaking the piss out of the fire and cooling her down before we even think about entering? To me the risk of a rocking basement job outweighs the reward. Sure the "good ol boys" brag about sliding down those stairs on their ass and its hot as hell to go and get the beast, but why are we still in the mindset that "going and getting it" is going to work or its going to prove something? Why not try and outsmart fire? It doesnt have reasoning, we do. And we gotta start using it. There's generally only one entrance and exit. Basically the odds arent in our favor and we need to start thinking of how we're going to change it.
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Post by papacheese on Mar 12, 2008 13:18:09 GMT -5
Lurker: I agree with your comments and probably left the impression I wouldn't enter if it was a relatively small fire or, if the size-up was favorable, give it the ole college-try.
As with anything else, it's about recognizing a situation as being potentially MORE dangerous than an average room and contents. Risk management is all about gambling instincts, cause basically that's what you're doing - gambling. Like a poker player, you're surveying the situation, gauging the odds as well as your opponent, then making a decision.
As Lurker suggests, it's never going to an easy proposition since things can and will change....so, to put a finer point on the problem:
Exactly when does a basement job become an out-n-out, no f**king thank you, don't-like-those-odds BAD risk?
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cheeseunit31
Probationary Forum Member
The cheese family
Posts: 16
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Post by cheeseunit31 on Mar 12, 2008 14:44:12 GMT -5
A couple of points to keep in mind, i believe there are a couple of buliding codes that might work in our favor if its a new house, or a recently renovated basement that has a bedroom in it, one there must be a secondary means of egress, which might be a bulk head door with a stair way, or a window that the occupant can get out of. Second depending on the square footage they might be required to have a limited area sprinkler system that runs off there domestic water supply.
No matter what, thelucker and papacheese still hit the nail on the head, you have to weigh the risk from gain, A veteran chief or company officer would be a great help in this situation.
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canman
Forum Crew Member
Posts: 45
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Post by canman on Mar 12, 2008 15:53:03 GMT -5
my opinion - go get it! conditions turn to crap - back out. this is the fire that probies and rooks dont even think about entering regardless who they are partnered with. just my 2 cents.
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canman
Forum Crew Member
Posts: 45
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Post by canman on Mar 12, 2008 15:56:25 GMT -5
ohh yeah also proper hose size / nozzle selection will make the difference - add that to my 2 cents list
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Post by thelurker on Mar 12, 2008 16:09:21 GMT -5
To address PC's Finer point; When don't we go get it?
Well, 1st and maybe most blatant...can you see furniture on a funny angle on DIV1? Don't go in, it's gonna fall down.
2nd, If the homeowner reports any large quantities of things that go BOOM in their basement, Don't go in.
3rd, if you try to hit it from the window and it chases you back, Don't go in.
I'm sure there are others, please help me out here guys.
Some tactical considerations,
Vent, Vent, Vent- Remember we are going to crawl down a chimney (or Chimbly for some...LOL) get as much of that crap out before putting you in.
Glass Block in place of windows- get it broken and cleared before entry.
Bilco Doors - Cut a triangle out near the center, that spans both doors. It is easier to remove the locking system than just hope you cut the pin. (The bolt heads should tip you off to where the lock is)
Consider a 2- 2.5 Inch line for rapid cooling of BTUs and superior reach and penetration.
Extension - any openings/pipe chases/wire runs will be an easy route for extension. Get a knock, then get above and start pulling walls.
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Post by shader101 on Mar 12, 2008 16:25:26 GMT -5
i like the code thing for new construction ,works fine till they have a co then all bets are off, for run of the mill adverage home owner, how many pull a permit to finish off a basement, my guess not to many,as for a bedroom down there probally even less get a permit for that, any good intel from owner/ your sences/sizeup ect helps when in doubt i would lean to the darken down from the windows . aint nothing in my basement worth your Life
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Post by spanner on Mar 12, 2008 18:00:38 GMT -5
The first action would be to vent. If a direct interior attack is chosen, you may want to have an attic ladder ready if the steps are in bad shape. Another option is to cut a hole in the floor and insert a fog or cellar nozzle. A last option would be to use high expansion foam.
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
Posts: 84
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Post by Reverend on Mar 12, 2008 18:54:25 GMT -5
Vent early...... vent often
Size up for amount of contents,layout, and fire conditions
Locate and force all possible access points..doors inside and out
Try to level the playing field..for your fire attack
Get ventilation moving away from the attack crew
Go get it... Have enough line to make all the stairs the first time
No the difference between a cellar and a basement
Cellar- Below grade room accesed via a hatch or small steps, can resemble a crawl space. Usually no windows.
Basement- Full depth, windows??,full steps, a door at the top, secondary entrance??, etc.
We enter basements to attack the fire.
We never enter a cellar fire
Spanner.. Who has high exfoam? 3123 95 gallons(need to verify)
Where highex foam is far out option, if most towns wait for it to arrive get set up and acctually work the house will be burnt to the ground. To employ this tactic in a wood frame dwelling with combustible storage with a fire load is a foul ball. We can fill the entire basement with water in 30 minutes. That will also put the fire out. Concrete storage area. OK.
I was riding with FDNY R-5 one saturday night and caught a 3 banger in Brooklyn and saw Satalitte 5 use their High ex foam on a bodego basement fire. It did work but it took one hour. Incidently they burned out two floors above it waiting.
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Post by papacheese on Mar 13, 2008 5:53:03 GMT -5
Lots of great comments and "tactical truths"...hope the newer people out there are eyeballing this thread....
Lurker...I especially liked the "....if it chases you away" comment. My personal feeling is this: if an 1 3/4 smoothbore isn't darkening the fire quickly and nicely, it's time to start thinking about executing a retrograde manuever (ie: backing out).
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Post by thelurker on Mar 13, 2008 8:52:24 GMT -5
Great post ray, there's some stuff to commit to memory right there. The difference between a cellar and a basement not something to many people touch on.
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Post by thelurker on Mar 13, 2008 9:08:09 GMT -5
one more tip, I don't know if this is something we are supposed to do or not, but this is something I have seen done. if the fire involves the gas meter, keep a couple flares handy for relighting, and just protect the area around it with a hose stream. If you accidentally put the fire out, relight it real quick to beat the risk of explosion.
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Post by papacheese on Mar 13, 2008 15:47:52 GMT -5
one more tip, I don't know if this is something we are supposed to do or not, but this is something I have seen done. if the fire involves the gas meter, keep a couple flares handy for relighting, and just protect the area around it with a hose stream. If you accidentally put the fire out, relight it real quick to beat the risk of explosion. Lurker: your posting begs answers to the following questions: 1) define "real quick"...is that one potato, two potato...three potato...BOOM? 2) OK, maybe I'm missing something here, but unless you can magically conjure up a road flare from behind your ear, I would then assume you must deliberately keep one in your pants pocket "just in case"....which then leads to the last question... 3) Is that a road flare in your pocket....... Never mind. |
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Post by thelurker on Mar 13, 2008 23:27:28 GMT -5
not a road flare...now you know why I couldn't find any bunkers to fit at your station...  Also, it was one of those things where they discovered the gas fed fire, and sent someone back to get a couple of flares, then began wetting the area behind it. Real quick was never defined, just...light one of those flares, if we put this out, go re-light it ASAP. Like I said, I didn't know if it was right, just it has been done. |
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Post by papacheese on Mar 14, 2008 5:11:38 GMT -5
After posting my reply yesterday, I was convinced you were pulling my chain....and immediately began planning the following training sessions:
"Flare Tossing Awareness", followed shortly thereafter by "Flare Tossing Operations"
With my luck, I'd toss the damn thing and miss......LOL
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Post by papacheese on Mar 14, 2008 5:17:00 GMT -5
As a part of the Tactical Topics series, take a minute or two to post about your experiences with basement fires...the ones that went wrong and the ones that went right. What were the circumstances...time, conditions, problems, outcome...
Years ago we had one that was, in retrospect, not too bad, but being a rookie, it was a bit "challenging" so to speak. Three of us stretched to the interior basement door and the officer told us "Check your water...when I open the door, run as fast as you can downstairs...you want to get off the steps as quick as possible..."
What happened next sounded like a friggin stampede...luckily the fire hadn't gotten too big or hot, but that was the longest ten seconds in my life....
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riverlinetk
Division Supervisor 
Training Aide
Posts: 49
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Post by riverlinetk on Mar 14, 2008 7:36:18 GMT -5
I've been able to run a bunch of basement fires. The one that sticks out most in my mind was with a mayday and a ff who was rescued by rit and just about dead. If i can after my little summary i'll send out an email and see if I can get the operational report on this fire.
Two story brick twin, 5' out front porch. Two windows to basement, one on B and one on D, rear basement door to each half. Light to moderate smoke on arrival at the left address as reported. Protocol in pg is first engine takes a line to the basement stairs, controls any extension on div. 1. (this is assuming there is an exterior entrance) Next line goes to the basement and puts out the fire while you hold it in check at the stairs. This is much easier to do with four guaranteed engines coming. The initial line stretches to division 1 to the stairs, being as conditions are almost not even worth having your mask on crew stretches down the basement stairs and begins to attack the fire. Second line comes in the basement door from outside and assists with knocking the fire. Truck companies on scene, one in the basement opening up, other conducting primary search. About ten min in, bulk of fire knocked conditions in basement improving. HOWEVER, fire was now in the walls and rapidly extending up while crews were still searching what had been just hazy conditions on div. 2. Fire vents the walls in one room on div. 2 and shit goes to hell in about one minute. Div. 1 and Div. 2 now both heavy smoke showing from every window. While crews were in the baesment the initial handline that went through div. 1 to the basement has now burned through and is useless. In the time it takes for everyone to regroup in a hurry the search crew on div. 2 gets trapped in a room and disoriented. There is now a mayday, there is a rit crew in place and the way the structure was laid out the stairs to div. 2 have been burning underneath and are now spungy already. Two and a half minutes later as rit is up onto the porch roof a window (one of the 10 inch bathroom windows you typically find) is cracked and noticed to see a hand waiving in front of it. By the time crews (and it was a very good operation) remove pt. through bathroom as crews inside are now with him as well..... pt. is in full cardiac arrest on the porch roof. CPR and aed hooked and used on the roof and ff is brough back. Spent the better part of 8 months in the hospital recovering from burns and burns to the lungs. He will never work again as you can expect, but he is alive and well today.
I was on the RIT task force that was called after the mayday. I got most of this from the accounts of every person there and reports written. I learned a lot from this fire as there were many lessons to take away. I'll hopefully have some pics later on today.
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Post by thelurker on Mar 14, 2008 9:50:13 GMT -5
Lejune St., D-20 December 2005
I have written this up before. But it went bad, and I got hurt. The floor caved right after the Chief pulled us out. Though some of the tactics were questionable, the fire got put out, and everyone went home.
Also 3 West Broad in D-80. Started as a heater fire, as we were making the initial attack, it had already extended through the baloon frame walls and popped out on all 3 floors above. Long job with alot of hook work.
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