Tactical Topics #1: Basement Fires

[papacheese]

"....and shit goes to hell in about one minute."

Add to this Lurker's comment about the fire extending up the walls and this becomes a very telling point.

Drawing on experience as well as a lot of reading, it seems to me that one thing that catches us completely off-guard is how fast conditions can change...from what's nothing more than a light haze to thick, nasty crap in under a minute. Along with shitty construction and materials, the element of time seems to be shrinking. The window of opportunity - that amount of time we have available to affect a safe, effective outcome - seems to rapidly narrowing these days because everything burns faster...what Chief Dodson refers to as "high volume, low density", stuff like plastic, foams, and synthetic fillers.

I can probably count on one hand the number of dwelling fires I was at in my early years where we encountered open burning upon arrival...it just took longer for the fuel load to burn.

[daveconstantine]

These things can go either way. I have been an active participant in several, one of which was like a freight train coming up the steps for us because of the gas meter at the immediate bottom of the steps actively blowing. Hot? yes! Scared pooh-less? yes! but the mindset back in the day---GO GET IT! After we had knocked it down to the point we could get in there and see what was actually on fire, there was so much crap, we would not have made it if it turned bad. We did call for a coordinated attack once we found the steps to the cellar. The exterior crew vented the windows and we started to decent. Half way down the steps we had to stop because of the fire coming at us.

Easy was to remember Reverends post. B is for Basement (duh-public education) that is also 2/3 out of the ground, higher than C for cellar, 2/3 below ground and not leaving much room for improper decision making. In either case, the amount of stuff in these areas are enough to make a you wonder why do we attempt this journey. Well, for me I happen to like this kind of fire because it is the most challenging you will face.

Take the different construction types and run with the strategy and tactics.

Balloon construction-vertical openings to every floor above. This by far will be the largest amount of personnel you will need to gain the upper hand on the situation. Figure a minimum of 2-3 crews per floor and a truck for the roof. The fire will travel to the roof while you are not looking and make a serious dent in your resume if you are not ahead of the fire. There is dimensional lumber in most of these unless some modifications have been made.

Not like the Truss floor you are going to encounter in newer homes. Truss construction is Balloon construction on it side - horizontal. It will travel across the trusses in no time and take them out fast than you can spell get out on your white board. As dangerous as balloon in the sense that it is going to collapse on you without thinking about it.

There is an added advantage to the truss floor basement job over the balloon or box construction in that the siding and sheathing is usually easy to pull off in sections at the foundation level. The way most trusses sit on the plate, the plywood acts as the box plate closing the ends of the truss off. Figure the top of the truss is 10-12 inches off the masonry or concrete foundation, the contractors will get the most of their plywood by cutting or riping it the 10-12 inches for the truss and by 8 foot length for the plywood length. If you take one piece off, you have exposed one big piece of property for yourself to fight that B or C fire from the outside. Watch you do not pull to much off, because that is helping to stabilize the rest of the dwelling and you need to be cautious not to cut too deep with the saw if you are using one.

Box construction will hold a little bit better for you in that the dimensional lumber comes into play and because it is built like a box the fire stopping is there for us to slow it from extending to the upper floors. Remember the heating ducks run most of the exterior walls from the B or C and will take that fire for you. Other opens will assist in that as well. Still, very important to get the companies in place to check for extension.

[papacheese]

A couple of factors contribute (IMHO) to the higher risks associated with basement or cellar jobs...the first, as 3100 pointed out, is the increased use of lightweight construction, the second, as the Rev identified, is ventilation, and the third is fuel loading compared to other areas of a dwelling.

If anyone reading this assumes I would automatically go defensive when confronted with a basement job, that would be missing the point of these discussions, which is to identify the factors which need to be considered before committing to an offensive strategy. There will be situations in which an offensive stance makes perfect sense, and others when a more cautious approach is warrented. Even in older, more solidly constructed buildings, these factors (again, this my MY opinion and no one elses) practically demand more information than the normal "room and contents" fire.

What prompted this thread was the unusual number of LODDs that resulted from troops rushing into what appeared at the time to be an obvious basement fire...or would have been more obvious had a cautious approach been taken. Lurker's comment about Lejune Road almost mirrors that of Jim Heenan's in Verga...a repeat that no one wants to see happen again.

[daveconstantine]

Papacheez, I do not think that you would automatically go defensive with this type of incident judging by the posts. With the amount of products in this area of the house, the reduced ventilation capabilities for companies, the fact that in most cases we have to travel over the fire to get to the fire and the way fires have been more or less exploding on us the points everyone here has posted seem to be valid and would have to be considered in even the smallest of fire in this area.

The only other area of an SFD that would even come close to the fire loading problem, would be the garage area, which is if you want to call it, would be on an even playing field for us. We still face some of the same factors and considerations, the large open space and dwelling attached. Line size selection and coordinated with ventilation is key to the success and member safety.

[thelurker]

I took this pic yesterday as we were doing a walk through of a new house under construction in our local. To give you an idea, they start in the High 500,000s. Almost everyone knows P.D. from the BCESTC, and how tall of a guy he is. I finally found something that Phil couldn't reach.

[papacheese]

Love those beefy structural matchsticks over his head....they'll last about 4.3 nanoseconds.

Hmmm...let's see, limited entry/egress, extremely high fire loading, almost certain haz-mat potential, little to no ventilation, and now horizonal balloon frame floor joists certain to not only spread the fire laterally, but quickly collapse the first floor down on top of you.

Yep, it's official: You're nuts to even THINK about entering that basement

[tootall]

I got an inch or two on him...I may be ok.... ;D

[thelurker]

ok..we will have you added to the box...just you though. and your job will to go to the basement, and just lift people out windows as needed.

[voyager9]

thelurker said:

ok..we will have you added to the box...just you though.

We can't have any freelancing... better call in the Burlington County Beanpole Strike Team Alpha.

[papacheese]

Hmmm...."Tower 272"....has kindva nice ring, doesn't it? LOL

[WebBoss]

papacheese said:

Hmmm...."Tower 272"....has kindva nice ring, doesn't it? LOL

Ever meet his dog... Pikepole 272?