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Post by chief3102 on Jan 30, 2008 15:17:48 GMT -5
Chief 3102 - I totally agree with you that we should be teaching RIT basics in FFI, but my point is that half of the class couldn't handle the duties. I kinda got your point and I was asking and will ask again, why then are we allowing them to graduate?  ? AS I stated earlier, a firefighter/any firefighter on the the firegrounds may be put into service to resue another firefighter at any time. That was my point and still is, that we should not be churning out future garden gnomes. |
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Post by papacheese on Jan 31, 2008 6:30:28 GMT -5
Chief 3102 - I totally agree with you that we should be teaching RIT basics in FFI, but my point is that half of the class couldn't handle the duties. I go back to an earlier posting by Web Boss that the skills necessary to perform RIT (search, assessment, stabilization, extrication, packaging, and removal) mirror those needed if we have a civilian victim. If FF1 students are not being taught those skills, then they need to be....they could potentially face a situation like that in their own local a day after graduating the program. "Experienced" has a whole new meaning these days...back in the glory years of "America Burning", you could have easily accumulated a boatload of OTJ experience within six months; nowdays the same real-life learning would take two to three years, assuming you make every working job. There's no easy solution to this problem other than the universally offered "Training" answer. I look around a typical working job these days, see a lot of 18 to 25 year old faces, and wonder how much "experience" they've seen....that's not a knock on their knowledge or abilities, just a nod towards reality. Lastly, no matter how many working jobs or training a person has, it's almost impossible to accurately gauge how they will react to a real-life RIT situation. Yes, we can have a strong idea that so-n-so will do OK, but as 1900 pointed out, it's not as though anyone has a bunch of rescues under their belt to draw upon. |
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Post by voyager9 on Jan 31, 2008 7:42:19 GMT -5
Voyager, I can understand your point, but I would rather see the removal of tarp folding, hose rolling, or hose packing and inderting more search and mayday instruction. I agree. If we can remove some of the less vital stuff in order to make room for Search, Mayday..etc then I think that's great. I wouldn't want to see that stuff added to the end. |
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Post by wellingcountry on Jan 31, 2008 10:02:23 GMT -5
How about we remove that whole class spent learning how to make chutes out of traps and covering stuff with tarps.
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Post by shader101 on Jan 31, 2008 22:06:02 GMT -5
well since i dont think the" fire gods in trenton" are going to change the ff1 course anytime soon, looks like that option is out for now , who rides your rit truck and what they are qualified to do is pretty much a local chiefs issue ,if you never drill with your rit ,fast or whatever you'll never know, as for the crew i myself dont want 5, 40 & 50 something's comming to get me or all fresh out of ff1's either, a mix would work , every thing we do is a team effort, so a few experanced and a few newer ff's, its the way we fight fires, mixed crews, i do like the mayday training idea for ff1, my personal feelin is if your chief and officers care about you the rank and file ff, they will make sure they know the operations of the rit they asign to your grids, if not its a political decision based on whom he rubs elbo's with at the various chiefs meetings ect.
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Post by papacheese on Feb 1, 2008 6:11:35 GMT -5
well since i dont think the" fire gods in trenton" are going to change the ff1 course anytime soon, looks like that option is out for now , who rides your rit truck and what they are qualified to do is pretty much a local chiefs issue ,if you never drill with your rit ,fast or whatever you'll never know, as for the crew i myself dont want 5, 40 & 50 something's comming to get me or all fresh out of ff1's either, a mix would work , every thing we do is a team effort, so a few experanced and a few newer ff's, its the way we fight fires, mixed crews, i do like the mayday training idea for ff1, my personal feelin is if your chief and officers care about you the rank and file ff, they will make sure they know the operations of the rit they asign to your grids, if not its a political decision based on whom he rubs elbo's with at the various chiefs meetings ect. I agree...as with any County guideline, it's "suggested" and not mandatory, meaning ultimately the responsibilty goes back to each department. Shader's comment about a "mix" is also a good one; I think including newer firefighters on a RIT as extra personnel exposes them to the possibilties as well as teaches them that this isn't a chance to buff someone's job but a serious business..... |
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canman
Forum Crew Member
Posts: 45
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Post by canman on Feb 1, 2008 18:27:58 GMT -5
I just noticed thisi thread- i tryed to skim threw it as best possible. 1. the mayday class has been a hot topic with BG and myself, we tryed to get this class into ff1 but the powers to be say that they do not want to extend the class any longer then it is now and taking out what us certified FF'S see as Bull Sh!T needs to be in the ff1 class because the students that come into the class are not being taught this stuff at the firehouse on drill night (if that still exsist). there is a mayday class coming out on flyers so please look for it. BG and myselfl have put alot of work into it and is a great class from all the feedback we recieved. as always we will put a class on for you in our station, just contact us.
2. i believe the students in ff1 are tasked with enough as it is with the class right now that if you added RIT to the class it would not make this student the best person for any RIT situation. Fire Fighting is hard enough for some one who has just started in the business and i believe the one year experience as a FF is the time when a "green" FF should go to these classes and get the training that is required if they want to be on a RIT. not everyone likes RIT and teaching the classes has taught me that. we have seen students come into the class with high hopes and then to see them figure out they are not cut out for it.
I could go on and on about this subject and some of the reasons why we do what we do. i just hate typing!
What you guys are asking about gets asked all the time at the ESTC and the county RIT Guideline meetings.
Marc
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1900
Forum Captain
Posts: 103
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Post by 1900 on Feb 4, 2008 21:18:13 GMT -5
Chief 3102 - I totally agree with you that we should be teaching RIT basics in FFI, but my point is that half of the class couldn't handle the duties. I kinda got your point and I was asking and will ask again, why then are we allowing them to graduate? ? AS I stated earlier, a firefighter/any firefighter on the the firegrounds may be put into service to resue another firefighter at any time. That was my point and still is, that we should not be churning out future garden gnomes. My personal feeling on this is we should run the Fire Academy like the Police Academy, in all aspects! And do not give me the paid/volunteer excuse cause no one wants to hear it nay other time...the job is the job... Lets face it fireman will die no matter what...but what we have to do is all we can to prevent this...until there is a PT test to even get into Fire I we are fooling ourselves thinking there will be any less LODD in the future...a major problem is departments routinely excuse quality for quantity...departments are more worried about getting the truck on the street and having X number of members then a few good solid ones...lets face it and be real with each other and ourselves if you cannot pass a basic PT entrance test what business do you have in the fire service... As for not being able to scream at the recruits or knock their *icks in the dirt (when appropriate of course) we are going to continue to have less then disreable graduates for the most part... If you could see what a truely regimented academy turns out, ahh nevermind....those of you that get it understand, those of you that dont, never will... |
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Post by papacheese on Feb 5, 2008 6:12:10 GMT -5
Chief...your thoughts are right on the mark as well as poses the following question: How many departments have a physical ability test just to get in? We're in the process of working on ours, but since the age range is wide, it must be flexibile enough without compromising an acceptable minimum level.
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Post by thelurker on Feb 5, 2008 7:13:57 GMT -5
I kinda got your point and I was asking and will ask again, why then are we allowing them to graduate? ? AS I stated earlier, a firefighter/any firefighter on the the firegrounds may be put into service to resue another firefighter at any time. That was my point and still is, that we should not be churning out future garden gnomes. My personal feeling on this is we should run the Fire Academy like the Police Academy, in all aspects! And do not give me the paid/volunteer excuse cause no one wants to hear it nay other time...the job is the job... Lets face it fireman will die no matter what...but what we have to do is all we can to prevent this...until there is a PT test to even get into Fire I we are fooling ourselves thinking there will be any less LODD in the future...a major problem is departments routinely excuse quality for quantity...departments are more worried about getting the truck on the street and having X number of members then a few good solid ones...lets face it and be real with each other and ourselves if you cannot pass a basic PT entrance test what business do you have in the fire service... As for not being able to scream at the recruits or knock their *icks in the dirt (when appropriate of course) we are going to continue to have less then disreable graduates for the most part... If you could see what a truely regimented academy turns out, ahh nevermind....those of you that get it understand, those of you that dont, never will... Not something that probably happens anymore, but when I was a 121, they knew the experience that the BCFA offered, and therefore had a much more agressive, regimented, and tough training regimen. After you finished FF1 you were still not a firefighter. It sucked but you had to show a certain level of competence and performance to be considered for the "Pack List," and that training was HARD. GOTWORK, CANMAN, and the others broke us down and built us back up to where we needed to be to be FIREMEN and not YARDBREATHERS. The made us run a physical fitness course in gear and on air, they made us do hot bottle changes, tie knots behind our backs, and turned off our packs while crawling through the mazes to see how we would react and to teach us to stay calm and run our mental checklists. I am sure if the powers that be would allow that type of training to occur, the BCESTC would be cranking out some badass firefighers, but then they would not be compliant with the No Child Left behind Act, or any of that other stuff required by being part of a school. It is a real shame that the fire service has come to this, but GRADES = FUNDING and Funding= Instructors and Programs. That is the sad state we are in, now is when we really need to step up the difficulty of our station drills, however, laziness and complacency, and the lack of fire has dulled training down to lecture/book/computers. I will admit, when I had the ability to effect a change in my department, I wasn't able to, and now it only seems to be getting worse. It does not bode well for our service, and it scares me. |
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Post by chief3102 on Feb 5, 2008 7:48:02 GMT -5
I for one am personally sick and tired of hearing the "we can't because they are volunteers" excuse. If you volunteered for the army or were drafted, you get your ass kicked just the same. We are much like the military in that we are also fighting for our lives and the lives of our brothers every time we strap it up. So stop the B.S. and let's start turning out some battle ready FF's. Rant over, And like Papa like to say, "Now I gotta go soak my head" !!!!!  |
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Post by thecutman on Feb 5, 2008 8:53:16 GMT -5
Chief 3102 - I totally agree with you that we should be teaching RIT basics in FFI, but my point is that half of the class couldn't handle the duties. Wylie, While I agree with you I do feel that we should atleast be teaching the students how to assist one another via ric fittings and so on. The other part of this is teaching the students some survival techniques wall breach, entanglement and most of all how to properly call MAYDAY (each student should go through a station on a 1:1 RATIO) and call a mayday. |
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gotwork
Special Operations Command 
Doin' It Our Way
Posts: 73
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Post by gotwork on Feb 5, 2008 9:57:57 GMT -5
I firmly agree that the MAYDAY class should be in FFI, face it if we don't teach what to do in an emergency then what would we need a RIT for. They would wait to long and be in a much worse situation. We should teach them the RIC fittings and such in the SCBA portion of the class anyhow.
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rp42
Forum Crew Member
Posts: 45
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Post by rp42 on Feb 5, 2008 16:10:17 GMT -5
Just like canman I've skimmed through this thread and didn't read every post, but read enough. This is my opinion ALL FFs from the beginning should know how to call a Mayday and have some basic understating of RIT. Like it's been said you can graduate from FF1 and 3 hrs later be in a situation where u need to call a mayday. What if your crew member goes down? Call a Mayday, convert the SCBA into a harness, and relay info to the rit team. That little bit WILL help save a life, and EVERYONE should know it. It isn't everything you need to know about rit buts its enough to get the ball rolling until a the team comes and gets you.
I agree with Gotwork when he said RIT is a specialty, and you want the best of the best on it. But if it takes 30 mins for a specialty unit to get there and you go down after 15, then somebody needs to know the basics to get you out.
Thats just my opinion
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Post by chief3102 on Feb 5, 2008 17:53:30 GMT -5
AMEN AMEN AMEN...........Now if we can only get something done about it!
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Post by thecutman on Feb 5, 2008 20:23:41 GMT -5
This can be handled in house to make all personnel take a RIT Awareness and RIT Operations class to even begin to operate as a RIT.
Another option is to add this to the Fire I curriculum (I for one do not feel that this is a good option due to the lack of experience and lack of knowing fire behavior).
The county Fire Chiefs can also take a proactive approach to push the issue to have certified personnel on the apparatus prior to responding to a RIT. If your not certified than stay back to handle other calls in your town. If you don't have a a set compliment of guys then you don't go. I know some departments are operating this way already (hats off to them).
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Post by papacheese on Feb 6, 2008 10:20:55 GMT -5
Just my opinion, but I personally don't expect BCESTC to turn out "battle-ready" firefighters.....I think THAT is the responsibilty of each department. I DO expect them to graduate firefighters with the basic skills needed to operate safely on a fireground...we shouldn't expect the Academy to do ALL of our work for us...lurker's description of his post-graduate work at 121 is a good example of this.
Having said that, I am a firm believer in modifying the program to include more firefighter survival skills, ie: "Mayday", communications, evac, and basic RIT skills...if that means re-prioritizing the curriculum, then so be it. One aspect that (IMHO) is NOT being taught or emphasized enough is basic building construction, more specifically the dangers of lightweight construction. If you look at some of the engineering "innovations" taking place out west, such as SIPs (Styrofoam Insulated Panels) and aerated lightweight concrete, then you realize it's just a matter of time until these firefighter killers start showing up in our own locals.
While doing a walk-thru of a under construction extended care facility here in Motown, I noticed another twist: finger jointed studs being used in load-bearing situations. I have as much hope in THOSE things holding up as I do being elected Pope.
As I'm known to repeat ad nausem: we ain't fighting our father's fires anymore....
Interestingly enough the Mercer County Fire Academy includes some degree of RIT training in it's FF1 program...
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JDub
Forum Assistant Chief
Firefighter
Posts: 192
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Post by JDub on Feb 6, 2008 14:26:07 GMT -5
I know I am going to here about this from hp4l....
When I went to Camden County's Academy they did a Basic RIT module with us. Consisted of a power point and demonstration done by our instructors.
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Post by WebBoss on Feb 6, 2008 16:18:09 GMT -5
Even though this is very good conversation, I think we have all made our points and I do believe every one agrees that some changes should be made. Step 2: How do we go about affecting these changes? Thank you for your assistance in stopping this:  |
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Post by thelurker on Feb 7, 2008 13:29:19 GMT -5
Well because I don't think that too many of us have any influence on what is going to be included in the NJDFS FF1 curriculum, I think our only option for effecting any changes is to step up our in-house training. Maybe get guest instructors to provide the MAYDAY training as part of an annual drill, train on RIT during the Duty Crew shift, or even make a full training day out of it on a Saturday or Sunday.
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? AS I stated earlier, a firefighter/any firefighter on the the firegrounds may be put into service to resue another firefighter at any time. That was my point and still is, that we should not be churning out future garden gnomes.
