RIT Training

[papacheese]

After reading the exchange on what apparatus is used for RIT and how it got sidetracked into training, I thought we could start a thread focused on the training aspect only.

This is (IMHO) a white-hot topic that has been around for a long time and never resolved. The County Guideline RECOMMENDS one year experience as FF1 and Rit Orientation and Operations as minimum training requirements (I know that cause I just read it yesterday while working on my RIT class).

As a Training Officer, I get uneasy when people banter around terms like "experienced", "veteran", and "Been to more than one working fire", not because I think they're wrong, but because they are hard to qualify, much less achieve in this day and age of fewer working jobs. That's NOT an excuse for just anyone jumping on the RIT engine, truck, or rescue, but merely an observation on reality. Exactly how do you quantify "experience"? One job, two jobs...six jobs? Are they "quality" jobs, ie: the person actually did something productive?

RIT can be/will be intense, a situation that we can hopefully duplicate in training to give the student a good idea of what can be expected as well as judge their performance. Personally, my feeling is that the more front-loading of requirements, the less ANYONE will be able to provide RIT on a consistent basis.

Here's my opinion: RIT Awareness and Orientation as a minimum, with regular in-house refresher and scenario-based training. Tacking on experience is not a bad thing, just harder to achieve, especially in areas with maybe two or three working jobs a year. In the end, RIT is about training and motivation...I know people with loads of experience I wouldn't take to a RIT call in a million years.

OK....let the banter begin!

[WebBoss]

I used to get a chuckle out of the RIT/RIC/FAST concept…

Back in the 90’s when the BCFA (as it was back then) had Chief Burnett going around doing the traveling road show for the first FAST orientation class, there was a story that always got told about how Rescue 909 did the first actual FAST activation. What always lead me to laughter, was how false this story was, and that none of the 909 members at the time would let the truth out. This is not at all meant to discredit Tony, as I gained a ton of respect for him taking on that project, he was only going by the information as it was presented to him.

The story…

Sometime in the mid to late 90’s, Burlington Twp was on a working job at a bakery in the strip mall that backs up to hospital drive. The companies had most of the fire knocked, but I think the job went 2 alarms or so. A Captain from 905 was on the roof when he fell through one of the vent holes, landing on top of the brick oven. The crew I was with from 121 was standing at the CP, while the FAST crew was across the parking lot, sitting on a curb with their coats open and SCBA just hanging off of them. As soon as word made it to the CP, the chief turned around and saw the FAST crew, then detailed our crew to go in and get the captain. We assisted now retired Chief Johnson from 301 in getting the captain off the brick oven, and carried him out the front door through all the debris, only to be pushed out of the way by the original FAST crew. (5 minutes later)

Now many years later, our county has changed the name FAST to RIT because that’s the popular name of the decade, and we have all these policies and classes in place. The problem I see is now there are many companies in the county that market themselves as “RIT Companies” when there really is no such thing. Everyone should be able to do RIT and be prepared to be RIT. RIT is not a specialty function. Yes, it comes with extra training, but we are training from FF1 to be able to go into a bad situation, search, locate, and remove a human being. So now we take a fireman, put him in a reflective suit that protects him from the associated heat, add a PASS device that basically screams “Hey I’m Over Here”, and maybe even add in a radio so you can talk back and forth as to what’s going on. Why’s it so much harder? Because we panic. Because we the fire service have a habit of making mountains out of mole hills. Two firemen can search for a missing firemen, locate him, and get him to safety. When we add 2 or more guys to the mix, all we’re doing is adding confusion and causing chaos. YES, there was the one training scenario where it took 22 firemen to remove 1 guy from a bad situation in an area that wouldn’t normally happen around here. YES, we need to learn from this and train and prepare to be ready for it to happen to us. NO we do not need to continually stroke our own RIT horses.

My biggest hang up has always been that we have “Orientation” then “Operations” then you move onto “Strategy and Tactics.” If all this information is supposed to be helpful to the firefighter, then why don’t we have one class that teaches EVERYTHING associated with the topic at hand? At the same time, if saving ourselves and our own is one of the most paramount responsibilities of a fireman, then why does the entry level fireman have to wait a year or more to get this training? This teaches saving ourselves and saving our brothers… WHY MAKE FIREMEN WAIT! Let the internal policies dictate the amount of time in to respond as RIT. This ranks right up there with why do we have to go to 161 or 191 for MAYDAY training, yet something so important to saving our own is not given during FF1 and isn’t at least offered as a separate class by the ESTC. We can all sit through the boring Everyone Goes Home lecture, but can’t figure out when and how to call MAYDAY, or at least have some base line training to self extricate yourself from the “Oh Shit” situation you got into.

Does anyone else feel my frustrations here?

[chief3102]

Boss,

Absolutely feel your frustration. Couldn't agree with you more. I think that in the world of TITO (2 in 2 out) at anytime your freshly graduated FF could be called on to function as RIT/RIC/FAST.
Excellent idea to place this training in FF1 classes. Maybe 3100 can address this through the Chief's Assoc. I have always thought of the problem, but let this simple solution escape me.
We already have added the Haz-mat block so why not RIT

[voyager9]

admin said:

ITwo firemen can search for a missing firemen, locate him, and get him to safety.

I would like to respectfully disagree with the above. While two guys can search and locate a downed brother its certainly going to take more to get him out. From what I saw in S&T it took a good part of a bottle just to locate and a second or third team was needed to actually rescue.

Now, I do think your points are right on. RI shouldn't be the specialty-type training we currently file it under. Anyone may be called to act as a RIT. Even if there are one or two dedicated RIT on the scene, other companies are going to be pulled in to assist or to act as additional rescue teams.

I picture it this way. There are more groups involved in firefighter rescue then RIT. RIT is "RAPID INTERVENTION TEAM".. as in the first team to go in. They are there as a dedicated group to get a quick jump on a possible rescue. They are there to start the rescue while the CP organizes the soon-to-be-chaotic scene. The CP decides who needs to get pulled out, who needs to continue their role (Attack Crew, for example) and then organize additional rescue teams to supplement RIT.

In other words, RIT is just Rescue Team #1. Additional teams will be pulled from other companies on scene as necessary by the CP.

[Reverend]

Weboss I am with you for the most part.

The stucture of the Rit program if you look at the course catolog alllows a FF to take the program in modules or all in a row. Essentially making it one class spread over about 7 weeks. Now could we have a one shot complete class, absolutly!

Pros: The material could constantly build during the program, without having to constantly review at the begining of each class.

We could add to the tool boxes of these FF. By showing them 3 ways to complete each task. Currently we show one and each instructor adds their variation of out of the box thinking.

Cons: Some FF have a difficult time commiting time to a long class. You know, work,family,& life in general. Excuse.. Maybe but it is fact.

As for the Mayday trainiing, BIG 10-4 their buddy. The mayday class is happening as a flier class this spring. BG & Fribble can elaberate more on that. FF-1 training I know it has been talked about but if it has made it into the schedule I dont know. Personally it needs to be thier in a big way, like take out 8 hours of tarp folding and train the students on something they need.

In my opinion the FF-1 program is not the base program it needs to be and in sets the probationary FF up for failure in alot of areas. Most FF 's dont get the reinforcement they need at their Fire Station so they need to be getting more during their basic training. The problem is in the past whenever something difficult or diciplined gets put in the program some candy ass recruit complains. Then their candyass chief whines to the Chief assoc. and it gets taken out. For example: Pushups & 2 1/2 charged line stretches.

That outa get me a phone call or nasty e-mail.

[gotwork]

I am in full agreement with Rev. We should be teaching MAYDAY in FFI along with alot of other streetworthy material. We should also be weeding out the future yardbreathers as well. We couldn't teach RIT in FFI because 1/4 of the students couldn't get their own asses out of trouble let alone somone else.

I was there with Boss on the incident he mentioned and let me say this.... due largely to the hard work of Chief Burnett, Chief Meredith, Chief Constantine, Chief Bozoski, Capt Gardner, President Friddell, Squad Guru Rev, and other PROGRESSIVE instructors the RIT (FAST) training in this county has greatly improved. I do believe that RIT companies should be specialties. There are companies that have a hard time with a basic R and C fire and then you want them to train to be mentally ready to rescue one of our own. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

[WebBoss]

rreis said:

We could add to the tool boxes of these FF. By showing them 3 ways to complete each task. Currently we show one and each instructor adds their variation of out of the box thinking.

That is what we need. FF's need this training, not only because it will help rescue firefighters, but because it will help rescue ANYBODY, firemen, civilians, those damn cops... anybody.

rreis said:

As for the Mayday trainiing, BIG 10-4 their buddy. The mayday class is happening as a flier class this spring. BG & Fribble can welaberate more on that. FF-1 training I know it has been talked about but if it has made it into the schedule I dont know. Personally it needs to be thier in a big way, like take out 8 hours of tarp folding and train the students on something they need.

It's about time! I took Chief Bozowski's version twice over the past several years, and I learned ALOT about my own personal abilities. I hope this program includes the different scenarios too. Way to go BG and Mark for getting this underway. (finally)

rreis said:

In my opinion the FF-1 program is not the base program it needs to be and in sets the probationary FF up for failure in alot of areas. Most FF 's dont get the reinforcement they need at their Fire Station so they need to be getting more during their basic training. The problem is in the past whenever something difficult or diciplined gets put in the program some candy ass recruit complains. Then their candyass chief whines to the Chief assoc. and it gets taken out. For example: Pushups & 2 1/2 charged line stretches.

Now if only we can get those who run the program to realize this, we would all be in a much better place. Bring back Russ Gilardy!

rreis said:

That outa get me a phone call or nasty e-mail.

If that happens because you hurt someones feelings, you'll know the right person heard the message, just didn't comprehend it.

[riverlinetk]

When we see all of this discussion going on about something that will/can effect everyone it would be very nice to see more participants from other depts outside of the five or so that are represented on here.

[opsoverkill]

Good article on this very topic!!!

August 2004

Evaluating Your Department's Rapid Intervention Program
By Nick Sohyda
Mt. Lebanon Fire Department, Mt. Lebanon, Pennsylvania

It seems like the every time I conduct a rapid intervention training program, I am always asked the same questions regarding how long it should take for a RIT to arrive on scene, how many people the RIT should consist of, and what type of training the RIT should have. I wish there were some simple, all-encompassing answers to these difficult questions, but unfortunately, there are not. Fire Departments across the United States, although all having very similar missions, all operate under very dissimilar circumstances. In answering these questions and evaluating the effectiveness of your department's rapid intervention program, it is important to consider many factors.
Factor #1: Compliance with Standards and Regulations

Although NFPA 1500, Standard on Fire Department Occupational Safety and Health Program, NFPA 1561, Standard on Emergency Services incident Management System, and the OSHA Respiratory Protection Standard, 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(4), Procedures for Interior Structural Firefighting, require personnel be available for the rescue of members operating inside an IDLH atmosphere, the development, response, make-up, and deployment of the rapid intervention team is left up to the discretion of the authority having jurisdiction.

Chapter 8 of NFPA 1500 states that (a) "The fire department shall provide personnel for the rescue of members operating at emergency incidents." (b) "A rapid intervention crew/company shall consist of at least two members and shall be available for rescue of a member or a crew." and (c) "The composition and structure of a rapid intervention crew/company shall be permitted to be flexible based on the type of incident and the size and complexity of operations."

NFPA 1561, states that "This standard shall meet the requirements of Chapter 8 of NFPA 1500, Standard on Fire Department Occupational Safety and Health Program, and OSHA 29 CFR 1910.120(q)(3)."

OSHA 29 CFR 1910.120, Standard on Hazardous Waste Operations and Emergency Response, section (q)(3) requires that " Back-up personnel shall be standing by with equipment ready to provide assistance or rescue. Qualified basic life support personnel, as a minimum, shall also be standing by with medical equipment and transportation capability."

OSHA 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(4) requires "a minimum of two (2) firefighters, fully equipped and trained SHALL be on standby outside the structure to provide assistance or perform rapid rescue, if needed. Voice, visual, or radio contact is required between the interior and exterior teams at all times. One of the exterior team members must be free of all other tasks in order to account for, and if necessary, initiate a rescue of those firefighters inside. While the second exterior team member may perform some other tasks, this individual must be able to abandon them without jeopardizing the safety and health of others at the scene."

Requirements for rapid intervention are also addressed in NFPA 1710, Standard for the Organization and Deployment of Fire Suppression Operations, Emergency Medical Operations, and Special Operations to the Public by Career Fire Departments, Section 5.2.3.1.2, and NFPA 1720, Standard for the Organization and Deployment of Fire Suppression Operations, Emergency Medical Operations and Special Operations to the Public by Volunteer Fire Departments, Section 3.3.23

After more than seven years in existence, most fire service leaders are more than aware of the requirements for a rapid intervention teams. The challenge is establishing the RIT to not only meet the standards, but also to be effective in the event they are truly needed to rescue a downed fire fighter.


Factor #2: Response Times

In a March 2002 article, Putting More RAPID in Rapid Intervention, I conducted an informal study of 40 separate incidents where fire fighters were killed in residential dwellings between 1995 and 2001 (for which either a NIOSH or NFPA report was available). It was interesting to find that the average time that either a MAYDAY occurred or there was an indication that a firefighter was in trouble at these incidents was approximately ten minutes after the arrival of the first due apparatus. In some of these cases, a RIT was on scene and fatalities still occurred; however, at some of the incidents where fatalities occurred, other distressed fire fighters were rescued and survived due to the RIT being established. Still, in other situations, a RIT was not established and, therefore, on-scene resources had to be gathered to attempt a rescue.

Obviously, an incident can occur even before the arrival of a second due piece of apparatus, as early as the initial attack crew entering the front door, or as late as, in the case of the study, thirty-eight minutes into an incident. There is no magic number. OSHA Two-In/Two-out compliance must occur immediately by having a minimum of four individuals assembled on the fire ground prior to an initial interior attack. A dedicated RIT with a minimum of two personnel must be maintained throughout the incident. We know, however, that two individuals is not enough manpower to form an effective RIT. It is my belief that a RIT consisting of a minimum of four individuals be established within ten minutes of the first arriving unit and, preferably, within the eight- minute time frame established by NFPA 1710.

The bottom line is that the earlier a dedicated RIT can be established and begin addressing fire ground safety issues such as throwing ladders, forcing egress points, and removing window bars, the better the chances of the survival of one of our own. RIT teams that are arriving fifteen to twenty minutes into an incident will not only be unavailable to address immediate safety concerns, but will also be unavailable during the crucial time periods when initial interior offensive operations are taking place and when interior members begin running low on air.

Response times are generally not an issue in larger career departments. The addition of another unit to serve as the RIT on the first-alarm assignment or the shuffling of an earlier unit with a later arriving unit can often times allow large career departments to put a minimum of four additional personnel on scene in a timely fashion to function as the RIT. In small career and volunteer departments, however, getting a dedicated RIT established in a timely fashion can often prove to be a significant challenge as often times the RIT function is performed by an outlying mutual aid department. Assigning the RIT function to an earlier arriving unit and reassigning their responsibilities to a later arriving unit may be a solution that deserves serious consideration. Remember, our number one priority should be fire fighter safety. Anything that may delay the arrival of the RIT such as waiting for the first arriving unit to confirm a working fire before the RIT is activated should also be rethought.


Factor 3: Staffing

As has been discovered many times, two individuals cannot effectively rescue a downed firefighter. Fire fighter rescue is a labor intensive operation. A four-person team will likely only be able to locate, assess, and changeover a downed fire fighter before running low on air. Through the hundreds of scenarios we have conducted in our rapid intervention training programs together with the reports and studies available from the Phoenix Fire Department, it is realistic to assume that it will take twelve to sixteen RIT members to rescue a downed fire fighter. Thus, the question remains, how many fire fighters does it take to effectively provide for rapid intervention.

There seems to be two extremes when discussing staffing of the RIT. One school of thought still believes that two fire fighters are sufficient to meet the standards and remove a downed fire fighter. Although two-person RIT allows us to meet the standards, we are fooling ourselves if we think they are going to make a difference in a MAYDAY situation. A second school of thought is now assembling twelve to sixteen fire fighters to perform the RIT function. Once again, there is no absolute. The staffing of the rapid intervention team should be based upon the size and complexity of the incident. Most departments recognize that it will take a minimum of four personnel to perform a standby RIT operation (see November 2002 - The "Safety Engine" Concept - "A Proactive Alternative for Fire Ground Survival") and to locate and assess a downed fire fighter. In the event of a MAYDAY and the deployment of the initial RIT, a second team will need to be quickly established from on-scene resources and a third, fourth, and/or fifth team dispatched depending upon the MAYDAY situation.

As a mutual aid RIT department, we currently send a minimum of four and a maximum of eight personnel to perform RIT for our neighboring departments. Eight personnel allows us to provide both and inside and outside team as well as a team to backup the first team and cover the rest of the fire ground in the event the initial team is deployed. Some departments are sending twelve personnel and/or three additional four-person units to conduct a standby RIT operation. Regardless of the number, realize that if something does go wrong, it will take twelve to sixteen fire fighters to rescue a single downed fire fighter. Whether those resources are standing by or need to be called depends upon your department's circumstances, including the amount of time it will take to get those extra RIT teams on scene.


Factor 4: Training

There are no standards that provide us with a minimum level of training for a RIT team member. Numerous departments are meeting the rapid intervention requirements by dispatching an additional engine, truck, or mutual aid department with members that have little or no formal RIT training. Do we really expect these people to make a positive difference under extreme circumstances? Are these the types of individuals that you want coming in for you?

Numerous rapid intervention training programs have been established across the United States. Many of these programs are teaching pretty much the same procedures and techniques with some minor differences. Regardless of the training program, rapid intervention team members should have formal training in rapid intervention. Otherwise, we have to strongly consider whether or not having a so-called rapid intervention team will be an asset or a liability when things go wrong. We need people that are going to provide us with the best opportunity for a positive outcome under extreme conditions or, at a minimum, keep things from getting worse.

I, personally, believe that rapid intervention is an area that requires additional skills and knowledge beyond that of the average fire fighter. Fire fighters assigned to the RIT function should be experienced fire fighters with a strong technical background and additional training in downed fire fighter assessment procedures, SCBA changeovers, enlarged openings, specialized removal procedures, fire fighter survival, large area search, advanced SCBA procedures, and a familiarity with extrication tools and equipment. This training should be standardized for all fire fighters that may be expected to function as a RIT.


Factor 5: Equipment

Although rapid intervention can be performed with a minimum amount of specialized equipment, there are numerous devices available that can increase the effectiveness of the rapid intervention team.

Thermal imaging will significantly enhance the rapid intervention team's ability to locate, assess, changeover, and extricate a trapped fire fighter. Thermal imaging will also provide for an increased measure of safety for the RIT. A search rope, large area rope bag, and a section of rope to both lower fire fighters from upper stories and remove fire fighters who have fallen through a floor will provide for team safety and speed up the removal process. A RIT SCBA pack with a facepiece and pockets to carry wire cutters, utility knives, a MAST device, webbing, carabiners, etc. will also increase the effectiveness of the RIT team.

There are numerous other devices available and being marketed as tools for RIT, some good and some not so good. Each department should evaluate and train with this equipment prior to making a considerable investment. Remember that the overall goal is a quicker extrication and removal time. If the equipment takes too long to setup, is too bulky to work with, or is difficult to deploy under smoke conditions, it will probably be more of a hindrance and may actually slow the removal of the downed fire fighter.


Factor 6: Standard Operation Guidelines

Written standard operating guidelines in which all members are familiar should serve as the driving force behind the actions of the RIT, whether standing by on the fire ground or deploying to locate a lost and/or trapped fire fighter. Standard operating guidelines for RIT will help to ensure the use of common terminology, standard equipment, and standard actions.


Factor 7: Proactive Supporting Programs

As fire fighters, we have to understand that rapid intervention is not the save-all for the many difficult situations fire fighters find themselves in. Rapid intervention is a reactive approach to fire fighter safety and although RIT provide an excellent insurance policy on the fire ground, there are numerous other programs in which we should be focusing equal or greater attention to ensure that the rapid intervention team is never deployed.

Risk management, accountability, fire fighter fitness, air management, and MAYDAY procedures are all areas that deserve equal focus in protecting our fire fighters. Even with the most well-trained and capable RIT on the fire ground, they will be totally ineffective without the support of a well-run accountability system and fire fighters who not what to do in the event they become lost or disoriented.

Well-trained fire officers applying sound risk management principles will go a long way in ensuring our fire fighters are not placed in positions that will make a RIT deployment necessary. Physically fit fire fighters that aren't in danger of collapsing on the fire ground will also make the need for rapid intervention less necessary.

Rapid intervention has become an important part of fire ground operations. Well-trained, physically fit, experienced RIT team members who arrive on scene in a timely fashion with enough personnel and the right equipment to get the job done can provide the fire department with an excellent insurance policy and greatly increase the chances of the survival of one of our own. Departments that establish RIT only to meet the standards are not a RIT. Departments that call themselves a RIT without any formal training, guidelines, or staffing requirements are not a RIT. Unfortunately, there are still too many departments pretending to be a RIT? How about your department; are you walking the walk or talking the talk?

[hp4l]

I know we keep harping on training, and for good reason, but does anyone out there train with their RIT company? Do you go to the fire academy with your first alarm RIT team to train together? We can go to classes and sit and listen and learn but who goes out there and does it. I know RIT 201 goes to a lot of river towns for RIT and we even have a building at 202 to train for RIT situations, but why aren't we training together?

You can teach most people ropes and knots in a classroom, but how do they do when it comes time to do it? Same for RIT, only a bit more serious if you ask me. Any thoughts? Are any departments already doing this?

[thelurker]

admin said:

The story…

Sometime in the mid to late 90’s, Burlington Twp was on a working job at a bakery in the strip mall that backs up to hospital drive. The companies had most of the fire knocked, but I think the job went 2 alarms or so. A Captain from 905 was on the roof when he fell through one of the vent holes, landing on top of the brick oven. The crew I was with from 121 was standing at the CP, while the FAST crew was across the parking lot, sitting on a curb with their coats open and SCBA just hanging off of them. As soon as word made it to the CP, the chief turned around and saw the FAST crew, then detailed our crew to go in and get the captain. We assisted now retired Chief Johnson from 301 in getting the captain off the brick oven, and carried him out the front door through all the debris, only to be pushed out of the way by the original FAST crew. (5 minutes later)

Does anyone else feel my frustrations here?

As a proud recipient of Curb Ass (b/c I was a probie not b/c I was on the FAST team) at that fire, I watched the whole ordeal from outside. Sean speaks the truth. Amen.

[1900]

To me this is BY FAR the best thread yet...

Anyone that knows me knows my feeling on the MAYDAY training...how do we even consider the Everyone Goes Home (and I will say it) "BS", when we do not teach a MAYDAY course...how are we suppose to get you home if you dont know how to call for help when your in trouble, or even know that your in trouble...and dont get me started on the F/F I program...mayday...what about a TRUE PT program...(once again I am a PT Instructor I would do it for free, following the PTC guidelines)...We do not practice what we preach...

Let me tell a story...a few years ago we were sent to Bill's Bargains for a 2 or 3 alram fire...we arrived third or fourth...as we entered the building we were met by guys from the 27, they were coming out because they were out of air...Scotty O said they had made the 2nd floor and ran out of line and air but there was alot of fire up there...my crew along with one of the 27's guys added line and made the second floor to find no fire...(this was confusing)...we began to vent windows on the C side and found alot of fire in the walls (balloon construction), we began to open up and hit what we could...as we looked out the c side windows we observed alot of fire in the sofits over us on the exterior. Also when you looked out the c side window you looked down on a lower roof with a good deal of fire coming out of it...we climbed out onto the roof and began hitting the fire in the sophits and as well as beginning to cut a hole in the lower roof we were standing on...A/C Haines and F/F Hume had the line and were holding the window we came out of, while myself and F/F Davis 27 were opening up....suddenly visiblity on the roof went to zero...A/C Haines yelled hey remember that window we came out of, its got fire blowing out of it...at the same time F/F Davis' low air alarm began to activate...we then crawled to the edge of the roof due to zero visibilty...we looked toward the A side and we saw d13's RIT standing there...we yelled to them to get us a ladder...after a few minutes they got us a ladder and we we were able to get off the roof...turns out someone knocked out the windows on the A side and with the 20+ mph winds it blew the fire threw the building...now looking at it after taking and teaching the MAYDAY traning we were definately in a MAYDAY situation, we just didnt know it...but we had a RIT there!!!...maybe thats why I am a proponet of ladders being thrown?!!! PS while in on Div 2 we found a cows ass helmet from a F/F who previously bailed out before we got there...anyone care to give more details???
PS2...just thought id mention this fire at Bill's Bargains (a furniture store) started as an outside rubbish fire....sound familiar???

But back to training.. MAYDAY without a doubt should be mandatory to ride, the story above had experinced firefighters even a RIT team, we just didnt have the training to know to call for help...offer it in F/F I, then offer it as an after class to get everyone trained and change the scenarios each year...

RIT without a doubt everyone should have....anyone at anytime can be required to do or assist with rescuing one of our own...or our own ass..like I said I think once people realize how much its gonna take to get them out they make think twice....

[WebBoss]

1900 said:

PS while in on Div 2 we found a cows ass helmet from a F/F who previously bailed out before we got there...anyone care to give more details???

Can I have my helmet back?

Just kidding, not really mine, couldn't pass up the oppertunity.

[1900]

I guess I will put this here...

As for RIT training basically thats all any of us have...I mean has there ever been a true RIT rescue in the County? Or has anyone in the County ever been involved in one....pry not...and to me experience takes more then doing something once...and if you've been involved in more then one RIT rescue STOP going to fires your bad luck...but seriously who is experienced to do RIT??? Crist for that matter how many of us ever pulled a civilian out???

Its like firefighting in general we dont have the fires we used to, people work more, people do more with their familes so how do you get experience with the few jobs we have??? But at the same time we now offer more training then ever before and more enhanced training then ever before...but can training be compared to experience...I think you need a mixture...no I know it, you need both!

[papacheese]

One of the main reasons I started this thread is because I have always felt a bit uneasy with the "Super Trooper" RIT concept....that there are only a few, truly skilled, highly motivated individuals out there capable of performing RIT to it's highest potential, that only the oldest, wisest, and most expereinced can or should be responding.

To one degree or another, I disagree with that concept.

As Boss pointed out, EVERY firefighter should be capable of performing RIT service....and it is incumbent on their department to train them beyond the Orientation and Operations classes. We can put together fifty BCESTC classes, but that won't make the majority of people better...they have to train and practice on their own local level.

Another compelling, albiet important point: the more "Super Trooper" you make the program, the fewer individuals there will be judged "truly capable" to actually provide the service. That's not advocating a reduction in training requirements, but's let's keep our eye on the collective ball. If we go overboard with elaborate requirements to call ourselves a "RIT Company", pretty soon we"ll have so few Super Troopers that the service will be sporatic and unreliable.

I think every FF1 student should undergo Orientation and Ops, and gain additional experience responding to RIT calls with older members...as 1900 pointed out, how many of us have actually ever "done" RIT or pulled a vic out? I'd venture a guess and say "damn few". That begs the question: who IS "experienced"?

Ultimately it falls back on each department to train it's people for that penultimate moment.....

[riverlinetk]

In looking back through I agree with many of the points offered throughout these RIT threads. Where I would take issue is with our own training and experience. I agree we should be teaching some RIT concepts and training in FFI. However, if a RIT crew is comprised of a lot of "newer" traing ffs then we don't know many things about that crew. How will they perform in interior ff? I'm not saying fill the crew with guys who all have 10 years in, etc. But you def need to have a few experienced guys there to lead, keep order, and get the job done. If not you could run into a blind leading the blind situation that could actually only make things worse. Each company knows who is who and i'm sure works towards assembling a compliment of guys who can work together and effectively to perform the duties as needed.

[chief3102]

gotwork said:

I am in full agreement with Rev. We should be teaching MAYDAY in FFI along with alot of other streetworthy material. We should also be weeding out the future yardbreathers as well. We couldn't teach RIT in FFI because 1/4 of the students couldn't get their own asses out of trouble let alone somone else.

Posted by Reverend on Yesterday at 11:07

In my opinion the FF-1 program is not the base program it needs to be and in sets the probationary FF up for failure in alot of areas. Most FF 's dont get the reinforcement they need at their Fire Station so they need to be getting more during their basic training. The problem is in the past whenever something difficult or diciplined gets put in the program some candy ass recruit complains. Then their candyass chief whines to the Chief assoc. and it gets taken out. For example: Pushups & 2 1/2 charged line stretches.

Then the question that just begs to be asked is..............

[glow=red,2,300]Then Why the hell are we letting them out of FF1 ?? [/glow]

Got Work, Absolutely we should be teaching this in FF1.

And Rev, I know that you will be giving the callers only your most politically correct, charming, cheerfulness in reply!!! ;D ;D

[voyager9]

While I agree that RIT and mayday training should be taught to every FF, I don' t know that it should be fit into FF1. This is more of a general training rant, then RIT-specific.

My thought is that FF1 is already 3-4 months. Adding more stuff is just going to dilute the whole.. Law of diminishing returns and all that. People hit a wall and go into overload and the really important stuff.. the stuff at the end, probably won't stick.

A better approach is to require additional classes beyond FF1. Either make it required for pack certification, or required within a year of completing FF1.. or whatever. The point is classes don't stop after FF1.

I'd rather see the folks getting out of FF1 immediately get signed up for Engine/Ladder Ops, Mayday class, RIT awareness/Ops. After that start checking out smoke divers and RIT S&T. There can be a break between classes where the individual has a chance to catch his/her breath, apply what they learned, question and train within their own department.. then jump into the next class.

While I'd like to see some of the chaff removed from the FF1 program, I also don't think it should be the panacea for firefighting classes.

[gotwork]

Chief 3102 - I totally agree with you that we should be teaching RIT basics in FFI, but my point is that half of the class couldn't handle the duties.

[chief3102]

Voyager, I can understand your point, but I would rather see the removal of tarp folding, hose rolling, or hose packing and inderting more search and mayday instruction.