Bill A-2097 What is this??? Are we going backward

[thecutman]

I can't believe this? I would love to hear comments on this one!

A-2097 This bill would ensure that firefighters with five or more years experience would be able to engage fire fighting regardless of whether they have the proper certification. (Taken from BCESN 1/28/2008)

[smokediver191]

I also read that, and only one thought came to mind...

Just because you're doin' it, doesn't mean you're doin' it right!

I think this is mistake, plain and simple.

[rp42]

I agree with you Scott. This is def. taking a step back. Its kinda like the it's ok to be on a hand line if you don't have FF1 as long as your not the nozzle.

[thecutman]

You have to love our government. I would like to know who in their right mind submitted this bill?

[voyager9]

From www.njleg.state.nj.us/bills/BillView.asp:
A2097 Exempts experienced firefighters from certification requirement.
2nd Reading in the Assembly

Wisniewski, John S. as Primary Sponsor
1/26/2006 Introduced, Referred to Assembly Law and Public Safety Committee
11/19/2007 Reported out of Assembly Committee, 2nd Reading

Bill Introduction: www.njleg.state.nj.us/2006/Bills/A2500/2097_I1.PDF

As I read that it sounds like its just got out of committee and hadn't gone before the general legislature yet.

[voyager9]

From the above Intro:
16 STATEMENT
17
18 This bill would ensure that firefighters with five or more years
19 experience would be able to engage in fire suppression, fire
20 fighting, or fire rescue regardless of whether they have the proper
21 certification. It is the sponsor’s belief that an individual with five
22 or more years experience as a firefighter is well qualified to
23 continue to serve as a firefighter.

There has got to be more to this.. Could this be an attempt to allow the "old guys" who have been doing this since before a FF1 program to keep doing it w/out going back to take FF1? I thought such a grandfather clause already existed.

[chief3102]

voyager9 said:

From the above Intro:
16 STATEMENT
17
18 This bill would ensure that firefighters with five or more years
19 experience would be able to engage in fire suppression, fire
20 fighting, or fire rescue regardless of whether they have the proper
21 certification. It is the sponsor’s belief that an individual with five
22 or more years experience as a firefighter is well qualified to
23 continue to serve as a firefighter.

There has got to be more to this.. Could this be an attempt to allow the "old guys" who have been doing this since before a FF1 program to keep doing it w/out going back to take FF1? I thought such a grandfather clause already existed.

They did the grandfathering thing once already. Sounds to me like someone, somewhere, was not doing the proper training and are now trying to cover their butts.

[riverlinetk]

There's always someone out there trying to circumvent the system, only this time that someone is one who hundreds of thousands of people elected to make decisions for them.

[papacheese]

The current Firefighter 1 certification requirements include the following:


"Shall have been an active member of a fire department for a period of not less than 18 months prior to July 1, 1994. The member must have performed the duties and function of a structural firefighter during the 18 months of active service. Proof of active membership in a fire department shall be verified by a letter from the fire chief of the department on department letterhead. Photo copy of a New Jersey Firemen's Association "Certificate of Exemption" will be accepted as meeting the 18 months of active firefighter experience in place of a letter from the fire chief..."

This is the grandfathering clause that 02 refers to and has been in place ever since DFS started the FF1 cert program.

Based on this, I can't understand the reasoning behind the bill's language, unless there some unidentified group "out there" who want to be certified without going through a training program.

My personal opinion is that verification is not enough "proof" that a person:

1) Actually and actively engaged in firefighting activities and was not a yardbreather/lawn ornament

2) Has kept up with operational and training developments over the years, and

3) Has a friggin clue what/how to do things.


While chewing this over, it should be noted that a "grandfathering" clause is usually employed to bridge an anticipated gap until the new rules apply to everyone; ie: with each passing year, there should be fewer and fewer applicants requesting to be grandfathered...eventually it will not be used.

[chief3102]

I agree Cheese. I have made a few calls to try to find out what the deal is with this. If I hear anything I will post it on here for all to enjoy.

[shader101]

maybe they wrote it to cover someone from another state that is cert in their state but not ours, we have the problem with a few ff's that took basic in deleware they didnt get covered by the granddad provision and the fire gods wont give them a nj cert because they didnt get the extra baggage our ff1 has attached to it some have taken the national test passed and nj will begrudinly accept that

[9000]

I have also taken issue with the wording in this Bill and as such we have updated our FD Policy as follows for Interior FF's:

1. CERTIFIED FIREFIGHTER > JOB DESCRIPTION:

Certified Firefighters are age eighteen (18) and above. This is based on the NJ Firefighter 1 requirement of age eighteen.

A Certified Firefighter performs general firefighting and other emergency service duties and provides public education for the community. This position occasionally requires supervision of other volunteers during emergency conditions, or as directed.

Certified firefighters are fully trained to handle all types of incidents and are permitted to engage in any type of interior firefighting duty and may enter a burning structure or atmosphere Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) upon instructions from the Incident Commander or Officer in Charge.

Note: For the purpose of this document the term Firefighter reflects both male and female genders.

2. TRAINING REQUIREMENTS:

Minimum Mandatory Requirements:

1. NJ Firefighter 1 Certification (N.J.A.C. 5:73-4)
2. Certificate of completion of a Firefighter Recruit Training Program to the Firefighter 1 Level from a training center approved by the NJ Division of Fire Safety (N.J.A.C. 5:73-4) (**)
3. Hazardous Materials Awareness (29 CFR 1910.120)
4. Hazardous Materials Operations (29 CFR 1910.120)
5. NJ Incident Management I-100 & I-200 (N.J.A.C. 5:75-2.1)
6. National Incident Management System IS-700
7. Demonstrate his / her knowledge and ability of the minimum mandatory training requirements.
8. CBRNE Awareness Certification by June 1, 2008
9. Rapid Intervention Team Orientation Certification by June 1, 2008
Acceptable Substitutes:
„« Firefighter Assistance Search Team (F.A.S.T.)
„« Other R.I.T. or F.A.S.T. Courses Verified
10. Confined Space Awareness Certification by June 1, 2008
Acceptable Substitutes:
„« CSA Training provided by employers & verified

(**) The City of Burlington Fire Department has always trained to a higher standard and as such shall no longer accept the NJ Division of Fire Safety ¡§Grandfather Clause¡¨ of eighteen (18) months of reported structural firefighter experience prior to July 1, 1994 in place of a certificate of completion of a Firefighter Recruit Training Program from a NJ Training Center approved by the NJ Division of Fire Safety or a Firefighter Recruit Training Program from another state or agency accepted by the NJ Division of Fire Safety.

Current BCFD Firefighters who utilized the ¡§Grandfather Clause¡¨ provision and meet the current BCFD policy requirements effective on the date this policy was issued shall still be considered Certified Firefighters as long as they continue to maintain all requirements.

Further, the NJ Division of Fire Safety does not count time spent as a Junior Firefighter towards any certifications regardless of training attended as a Junior Firefighter, thus Certified Firefighter status shall start at age 18 if all minimum requirements and annual mandatory training are met.

In order to continue their certification firefighters shall also maintain the following annual mandatory initial and / or refresher training:

1. Self Contained Breathing Apparatus
2. Respirator Face Piece Test
3. Right to Know (N.J.A.C. 8:59-6)
4. Hazard Communication Standard (N.J.A.C. 12:100-7)
5. Blood Borne Pathogens (N.J.A.C. 12:100-4.2)
6. Hazardous Materials (29 CFR 1920.120)
7. Incident Management System (N.J.A.C. 5:73-6.1)
8. Personnel Accountability System (N.J.A.C. 5:75-1.5)
9. Fire Department Policies
10. Demonstrate his / her knowledge and ability of the minimum mandatory training requirements.

Certified Firefighters who have completed the minimum mandatory requirements, but failed to complete any part of the mandatory annual refresher training shall be declared by the Station Captain as non-certified until such time when the refresher training is completed.

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We have very few that fall into the old grandfather clause (older members) who mostly are apparatus operators and do not handle interior work.

We have also had problems with DFS not accepting training from other states including IFSAC & Pro Boards. One such was an IFSAC Instructor / Career FF who they would not provide a NJ Level 1 to absent taking a test. If we are all following the national standards (NFPA) then what is the problem ?

[papacheese]

I ran into the same problem when I tried to get Instructor 1; they refused to acknowledge that a New Jersey State teaching certificate could make me qualified to instruct....just didn't make any sense to me.

[chief3102]

Welcome to New Jersey!!!!!! Where else can you go and have the Fire Prevention people telling residents to not try to fight a fire, but to get out of the house and then have a jack a$$ politician make a law stating that it is mandatory to have a fire extinguisher hanging in their kitchen. I can't wait for someone to die because they were fighting the fire with their mandatory fire extinguisher..............

[voyager9]

chief3102 said:

Welcome to New Jersey!!!!!! Where else can you go and have the Fire Prevention people telling residents to not try to fight a fire, but to get out of the house and then have a jack a$$ politician make a law stating that it is mandatory to have a fire extinguisher hanging in their kitchen. I can't wait for someone to die because they were fighting the fire with their mandatory fire extinguisher..............

From what I've seen, the only thing those extinguishers are good for is coating the inside of a self-cleaning oven. (and outside, and surrounding kitchen...)

As for the Bill, I don't know. Since the Grandfather-thing was built into the FF1 certification I don't see any redeeming quality. It would be nice for Out of State FF's to challenge FF1 (we have a couple in that position) but I doubt that's what this bill was trying to do.