Search Techniques: Line or No Line?

[papacheese]

This topic comes up every so often, provoking a lot of comment...why not flog it for a little bit in here?

[glow=red,2,300]Should search crews take a line with them?[/glow]

I understand there are two very diametrically opposed schools of thought about this, so I'd like to hear what the group thinks.

[FirstDue312]

Being a rook, I only know what I've been taught. That being said, from FFI to training with Moorestown at station, department, and impromptu drills thrown together by us younger guys, I have never brought a line with me while doing a primary or even a secondary search. However, a can man can be an invaluable asset if you encounter fire during your search. Hydraulic cooling is commonly used by FDNY truckies and they send their can man ahead of the search team if they arrive before the engine to hit the fire room with a can and shut the door, thus to at least cool it. That being said though, with time being of the essence and truck work being inherently different than the engine company, I believe that a search crew should not have a line for one simple reason besides it slows them down. If its too hot or too much fire, what the hell are they doing in there in the first place? Though, it is our job to protect or save lives and property, at what cost? Risk management is important with search crews.

Sorry for the long winded-ness.

[gotwork]

This is a very situation dependent question.

If you have an engine crew and a truck crew then no. The truck crew does the search with the engine crew controlling fire (they can search the area where they are operating).

If you don't have a truck with you, then search as you go. Second and thrid man on the line can branch out and search as they work through the structure.

If you have no engine and suspect victims. Grab the cans and control the fire as much as possible and search the "viable" areas. Less risk and better chance of victim survival. May be a good situation for vent enter search.

With that being said I am a truckie at heart (I know I ride an engine now) and consider the line an umbilical chord. It impedes the speed at which a search can be conducted. I trust my engine guys will do their job and I can do mine quickliy and efficiently.

[Reverend]

Hoseline not neccessary, But........

- You should have the can with you.
- You should maintain crew integrity.
- You should always maintain communication.
- You should always be ultra aware of your situation and conditions
- You should know what conditions are atainable and which are a no go
- You should always maintain physical control of fire areas prior to passing them
-You should have a second means of egress planned(ladder,window,Bailout)
- The crew/IC should assure a hoseline is being stretched in your direction asap

If you follow the above: You may remain free of injury and be sucessful

If you dont follow the above: YOU NEED A HOSELINE

[lilfireguy272]

i think it would be good to have a line there just in case it hits the fan but then i think it might get in the way...

[gongsquad]

I would say search without. If I were searching a second floor with fire on the first I would detail one of the members on my crew to a handline to protect the stairs.

[voyager9]

I'm going to assume this refers to a residence. If so, Without.
It is much harder, and much slower to try to perform a primary search with a hose line. A group of two should be able to search a residential home very quickly. Add a charged line and the same group is going to get bogged down.

One of the goals of the search is also to locate, and control if possible, the fire. Radio the location to the engine crew so that the can advance straight to the seat of the fire and not waste time looking for it (and back tracking with the line in the process). Give it a few good hits from the can, close the door, then continue the search.

If we're talking a commercial building then we're getting into large area search which is a whole nothing ball of wax. Still no hose line but you need a lot more manpower and search rope.

[thelurker]

voyager9 said:

I'm going to assume this refers to a residence. If so, Without.
It is much harder, and much slower to try to perform a primary search with a hose line. A group of two should be able to search a residential home very quickly. Add a charged line and the same group is going to get bogged down.

One of the goals of the search is also to locate, and control if possible, the fire. Radio the location to the engine crew so that the can advance straight to the seat of the fire and not waste time looking for it (and back tracking with the line in the process). Give it a few good hits from the can, close the door, then continue the search.

If we're talking a commercial building then we're getting into large area search which is a whole nothing ball of wax. Still no hose line but you need a lot more manpower and search rope.

You also feel that way about the McMansions..Residential with the square footage of a warehouse.

[FirstDue312]

Haha very true

[voyager9]

thelurker said:

voyager9 said:

I'm going to assume this refers to a residence. If so, Without.
If we're talking a commercial building then we're getting into large area search which is a whole nothing ball of wax. Still no hose line but you need a lot more manpower and search rope.

You also feel that way about the McMansions..Residential with the square footage of a warehouse.

Touche'. Thank you for allowing me to correct myself

[thelurker]

Just some food for thought, brother.

[daveconstantine]

WARNING: EXHAUSTIVE HOT AIR EXCHANGE EMERGING!!!!!!!
Where to begin........ Our job is to locate, confine and extinguish the fire.... you know the basic stuff. Remember our basic stuff though in situations like this and do not let yourself get out of control. To locate the fire you must do a proper size up (not only the IC job) of the incident and move in that direction. The first place we should be looking for our Primary search occupants is where? closest to the fire or above. The engine can start the primary search but must maintain that area and function. The next in crew is assigned to the primary search for the occupants. What is already nearest the fire room(s)? the hose-line. Can that crew follow the hose-line in closest to the fire and operate off that doing an oriented search? I would say yes. This is not something we would be doing without the hand-line; more traditional search. To me, it is a must that the first in crew have a line to begin our basics. We must begin to control the fire before the occupants can be removed otherwise we are going to have an uncontrolled fire on our hands with more occupant (firefighters) inside thus creating a more serious problems for ourselves. The truck should have a can with them every time, line or not.

To answer the original question in twenty words our less, the use of a rope is situational and structure dependent and I do not think yes or no can be in permanent marker.

OK, more than twenty words, but you were warned.....

My thoughts, not to reflect the Organization I come from...........

[papacheese]

daveconstantine said:

WARNING: EXHAUSTIVE HOT AIR EXCHANGE EMERGING!!!!!!!
Where to begin........ Our job is to locate, confine and extinguish the fire.... you know the basic stuff. Remember our basic stuff though in situations like this and do not let yourself get out of control. To locate the fire you must do a proper size up (not only the IC job) of the incident and move in that direction. The first place we should be looking for our Primary search occupants is where? closest to the fire or above. The engine can start the primary search but must maintain that area and function. The next in crew is assigned to the primary search for the occupants. What is already nearest the fire room(s)? the hose-line. Can that crew follow the hose-line in closest to the fire and operate off that doing an oriented search? I would say yes. This is not something we would be doing without the hand-line; more traditional search. To me, it is a must that the first in crew have a line to begin our basics. We must begin to control the fire before the occupants can be removed otherwise we are going to have an uncontrolled fire on our hands with more occupant (firefighters) inside thus creating a more serious problems for ourselves. The truck should have a can with them every time, line or not.

To answer the original question in twenty words our less, the use of a rope is situational and structure dependent and I do not think yes or no can be in permanent marker.

OK, more than twenty words, but you were warned.....

My thoughts, not to reflect the Organization I come from...........

I should have been a bit more specific.....the question should have read: Should sereach crews take a handline with them?

[chief3102]

First off let me say that I do no believe that there is a definitive answer to the question. Having said that, here are some points to ponder……..Is searching without a handline a “smart decision” or a “necessary evil”? General rule says that you don’t search without a protection line. Once again we have to look at the controversial “risk vs. benefit”.

1. What is the “rescue profile”? Rescue profile where developed by Michael Bricault as a way to classify the hazards as:
Low Profile: Unoccupied/Vacant, no windows, boarded up, etc.
Moderate Profile: Obviously lived in but no evidence that anyone is home.
High Profile: Seeing people in the windows or escaped residents reporting someone still in the structure.
2. Where is the fire now?
3. Where is the fire going?
4. Where will it be by the time I finish my search?
5. Ventilation?
6. What/Where are the exit points?
7. Are handlines already placed? Are they going to affect my search?
8. Air Supply?
9. Tools, do I have what I need?

How do we get the above answers? By doing a COMPLETE 360. This will give you clues as to where the fire is located and more importantly as to where potential victims may be located. It will also highlight any potential dangers such as,
Security bars on doors or windows
Boarded up/bricked over windows and doors
A/C units in windows
Accessibility to the rear
Fire extension
Structural integrity

This information should be clearly communicated as well as where the search will begin.
This will help prevent hoselines being deployed that will hamper the search.

And, don’t forget that the building must also be prepped for search. Venting quickly and throwing ladders. These days of limited staffing force the first arriving offices to make some tough decisions. Again, Risk vs. Benefit.

Fire attack and search can and preferably should occur at the same time. The primary function of the first deployed handline should be to support the search, not to extinguish the fire. If by chance the fire can be put out quickly, that is a bonus.

For example, in a typical 2 story SFD the first line should be positioned to protect the interior stairs, which would be the primary access to the bedrooms. Ranchers are different, floor plans change, but the primary objective is the same, PROTECT THE SEARCH CRFWS. If the situation prevents you from advancing until the fire is controlled, search the areas behind the line first.
Primary searches are a rapid and should concentrate on the most likely area where victims would be found, and should begin in the areas of greatest danger and work outwards. Obviously if the danger situation calls for the Vent-Enter-Search, then a handline is not in place for protection. This should be a last resort/High Profile search method and should be announced on the radio so that all players are aware of what is happening.

So, I hope I didn’t confuse the already muddy waters, but the answer is “IT DEPENDS”.

(Sorry for being so long winded, but a couple of Darvocet and a muscle relaxer will do that to you.)

[papacheese]

Now for MY apologies......

I haven't responded yet because I can see the validity of both sides. Regardless of your position on the matter, one thing is crystal clear (at least to me): searching above an active fire without a handline is extremely bad ju-ju.

Yes, I know that many, many veteran fire departments do it on a regular basis. Yes, I know a handline inhibits movement and speed. Yes, I lament the distraction of having to handle a tool, a TIC, and a handline. It's not only more difficult, it can also be viewed as self-defeating.

And yet...

Seems to me that too many brothers and sisters die during the classic "search " while operating above a working job. Would having a handline prevent this? Not in some cases, but it would in others, especially when we're being forced to search in worsening conditions (ie: pre-flashover stages). I can't speak for anyone else, but when the heat drives me even further down on the floor and things appear to be heading south in rapid fashion, a handline to stave off the potential flashover would be a virtual God-send.

I guess I'm enthusiastically endorsing 02's comment: it depends. His notes about assessing the survivability of a possible victim is, in my mind, the REAL determining factor.

[chief3102]

Just to clarify........l am in no way saying that the actual serchers muist drag a hose with them, I am saying that a hose should be assigned as a protection line for them.

[chief3102]

Also, on the subject of searching above a fire, Chief Vincent Dunn (FDNY Ret.) writes:


One of the most dangerous assignments a firefighter can take is to go above a fire. Firefighters operating above a raging fire have been forced to jump for their lives out of second-floor windows. They have been burned to death by blasts of flame as the room flashed over, their bodies discovered after the fire, hanging out of open windows or crumpled up just below the sill. The deadly products of combustion rise upward and kill firefighters trapped above a fire. Heat and flame may block their escape back down a stairway they had just climbed, or flames may quickly spread up the outside of the building from window to window. The smoke, heat, and toxic gases may seep through the cracks between the floor boards, concealed spaces, and poke through holes; a trapped firefighter may be asphyxiated by these products if his air supply runs out, or these products may react explosively in a fireball.

When a firefighter is killed above a fire, the cause of death may appear to be collapse, carbon monoxide, or flash-over. However, a careful analysis may reveal a deadly chain of events as the cause, not a single mishap. First, the firefighter becomes disoriented. Then the firefighter is lost in smoke, entangled in some object, or confused by the sudden heat or flame increase of the growing fire. Next, the firefighter is unable to return to the door or window just entered and is unable to find an alternate escape. Then either the firefighter is overcome by smoke or toxic gases after the breathing apparatus runs out of air, or burned to death by flashover, or the firefighter falls victim to hyperthermia, in which case his body absorbs the rising heat faster than it can be evaporated.

Flame and heat cause 25 percent of the firefighter deaths in this country each year. Some of these victims are those trapped above a fire. If operating above a fire is so dangerous, we must ask ourselves: why do it? The answer is threefold: to search for trapped occupants of a burning building: to search for vertical fire spread; and to protect people trapped on a top floor during a shaft fire.

He further states:

Firefighters must go above a fire to search for unconscious or trapped people as soon as possible during a fire. In multistory buildings, the most arduous location besides the immediate fire area itself is the room or apartment is the rooms directly above a fire. Of the six exposed sides of a fire (the four sides and top and bottom), the most deadly side is the one above the fire. A firefighter ordered to conduct a primary search of the fire structure will go above the fire as soon as possible after searching the point of origin. Deadly carbon monoxide is generated by the incomplete combustion of the typical fire load in a burning house. It is lighter than air and quickly rises to the floor above.

And finally:

Most firefighters are trapped on a floor above a fire because they failed to size up the fire below them. The condition on the fire floor should be analyzed before going above. If not, a potentially deadly mistake is made. The firefighter should attempt to determine the approximate location of the fire. To check the hot spot above, the firefighter should know the hot spot below. Next, the size and intensity of the fire should be observed. (In most instances, only the flame and smoke coming out of the doorway to the burning room or apartment can be observed.) This information should be used by the firefighter to determine if the fire can be extinguished by the hose attack team. If the fire appears beyond control of the firefighters operating the hose line, do not go above. Notify the chief there will be a delay getting to the floor above. Seek another safer avenue to get above or as soon as conditions permit go above and complete the assignment.



These are excerpts from an article that can be found at, www.workingfire.net/Rescue.htm