RIC Taskforce

[WebBoss]

Split from: ALS+added+with+all+co%27s+in+service%3F

riverlinetk said:

Our job as ff's is inherently dangerous. Just last week a ff suffered a heart attack and died enroute to a response on the apparatus. Also, an FDNY lt was killed on the 14th floor of a high rise fire. The point being here that we don't do enough on our own end to support and have resources ready to take care of our own if injured at an incident, especially a working fire.

In many other counties across the country you get an ALS unit as part of the working fire dispatch, the "all companies" here. Why is it that we don't have this here? I was give the answer before by several people that we "do not have the ALS resources" available to use b/c there are only five of them, coupled with the fact that "the medics don't think their job is to stand by on a fireground". Part one of that their are not enough units available is bunch of crap. The food chain goes me, you, and them. If we don't take care of each other then we aren't able to provide that service to anyone else. Part two about it not being their job, well i don't know if that true or not, but i'm sure they don't all think that being as many of them are ff's in other places.

I bring this up as there was a ff injury on mt. holly the other night on the bispham st. fire. He was not seriously injured, but that wasn't known to begin with and in no way should we have to wait for a medic unit to be dispatched, located, and arrive for their service. What if we run into none available in our area? Start them on the all companies and we can be sure they'll be their until their services have been released by command. Sorry for my rant but I think this is inexcusable and needs to be addressed. Let's hear everyone elses input on this.

So I had a thought...

With the discussion going on about ALS on WFD's, I have been weighing the different opinions and ideas that have been passed abound and I came up with a bit of an idea that I would like to ask for everyone's opinions on, then go from there.

How about establishing a RIC Taskforce as a countywide requirement? The RIC Taskforce should be comprised of 1 Truck Company, 1 Engine Company, 1 Rescue (Heavy Capable), 1 Ambulance, and 1 Medic Unit, with an assigned Chief to supervise the operation. A RIC Taskforce would be assigned to all 2nd alarm or greater incidents, and All Co's assignments in designated high hazard incidents.

This should give us 12 members, plus a Chief, as well as an Ambo and Medic for treatment/transport of the injured firefighter(s). The sole purpose of this taskforce would be to provide a "Heavy RIT" for those significant risk type incidents.

Comments, Thoughts, Suggestions, Complaints?

[opsoverkill]

Like the Idea. Question the Medic unit due to resource. But the solution to that would be either add the Medic and the two supervisors (Burlington and Camden) combine and add a medic unit to back fill the hole or both Supervisor respond on the RIC making that the Medic Unit. I would even expanded it to state that if you respond as a RIT company you must belong to your area RIC team. That is so the RIT still has its place with the small Room and Content All Companies. And if it is upgraded they have the rest of their RIC respond.

Very interesting concept one to be presented to the 15 group.

[1710]

Sean

I agree with you in theory. One of the things that is a problem is time to get the equipment on the fire grounds. Yes use what is close to your district, but you are probally already using them for the fire. By the time you get all of this equipment on the fireground, the fire will hopefully be under control. Notice I said hopefully. I know of many incidents that even being on the initial dispatch we have gotten to jobs and the fire has been put under control. I notice you said 2nd alarm only and maybe that is where the key is, but who are you going to call. Throw me out an example.

[WebBoss]

1710 said:

Sean

I agree with you in theory. One of the things that is a problem is time to get the equipment on the fire grounds. Yes use what is close to your district, but you are probally already using them for the fire. By the time you get all of this equipment on the fireground, the fire will hopefully be under control. Notice I said hopefully. I know of many incidents that even being on the initial dispatch we have gotten to jobs and the fire has been put under control. I notice you said 2nd alarm only and maybe that is where the key is, but who are you going to call. Throw me out an example.

I was figuring this on the more serious, longer duration incidents. Something where there is a lot of fire load, a lot of square footage to be concerned with, or a high then normal risk factor. That is where my thoughts of 2nd alarm or High-Hazard boxes.

Using your primary grids as an example, I know you use 2518 as your RIT. So there's your rescue. They're already going to be there, not we just have to add to them, to augment the RIT abilities on the scene. So now we simply move up the next Truck and Engine, add the BLS and ALS resources, assign a Chief to oversee them all, and backfill accordingly.

This is something that could also be built into your second alarm or added to the All Co's list for your larger, more dangerous structures. I do not intend on this to replace your predesignated first alarm RIT company. My intention is to have a better prepared RIT Group once the incident beings to escalate beyond "just a normal hose fire." parsay.

[papacheese]

I need a little time to chew over your proposal, but the idea of automatically dispatching ALS on working jobs and riverlinetk's comments struck a chord...he's absolutely right.

Here's my two cents:

1) if they're aren't enough ALS resources, then get them......we're certainly worth the money.

2) As far as whether it's their job or not....they don't get to decide that, we do. If they think that standing around an active fireground isn't their job, then they should be re-examining their choice of careers. I for one have a hard time justifying a delayed ALS response to a downed firefighter because there isn't enough to go around or worse yet, they don't feel like standing by.

An active fireground is a DANGEROUS PLACE...especially, as statistics show, during the first twenty minutes. If nothing else, get them on the way; if the IC judges that the liklihood of a life-threatening injury is low, then release them....

I'm sure this won't be a popular idea with my EMS colleagues, but to be perfectly truthful, I'm being totally selfish and protective...as I said earlier, we're certainly worth it.

[1900]

I too agree with this in theory...

However with something like this I think there would definately need some standards, such as training/experience minimums, ensure the company responding has the correct types and amount of tools associated with RIT/RIC/FAST...

Again if we are going with the what ifs and that pretty much what RIT/RIC/FAST is, then why not do it correctly...

How many people truely understand what RIT/RIC/FAST is and what they do, may have to do, or will be able to do? I think everyone needs to understand the RIT/RIC/FAST from the Fire Chief down to the first day probie...If a Chief does not know what it takes to remove a downed firefighter, he does not have the true understanding of RIT...Sound easy enough send four guys in to bring oner person out, hmm try it first! People need to realize just cause there is a RIT/RIC/FAST on the scene doesnt mean bad things arent going to happen, people need to understand depending on the ailities of the RIT/RIC/FAST crew will affect the outcome, people need to also understand which I believe is not instructed enough is there may be a time when the RIT/RIC/FAST will not be sent in to make a rescue...

But yes this is a good idea, maybe not on every job, but definately on your high hazards and larger fires.

And remember FAST doe snot stand for "Four Assholes Standing There."

[wellingcountry]

Here is a RIT taskforce guideline out of Lancaster County PA. Just to add I know that ALS is part of this taskforce and that is another tread but just to let eveyone know ALS in PA consists of one EMT and Paramedic and is there are alot more ALS units in PA because of that. But with that said here is the line to the guide line.

www.lancofirechiefs.org/lcfca/lib/lcfca/standards_comm/proposed_changes/500.505_rapid_intervention_team_task_force.pdf

[chief3102]

First off, let me say that the discussion in the "RIT, what truck do you bring" thread started to go in this direction. I believe that a RIC Task force is a GREAT idea. I have been reading the LODD report from Prince William and one of the things in there hits on the RIT Task force. Prince William has one in their standards and was questioned as to why they were not called.

[thelurker]

1900 said:

How many people truely understand what RIT/RIC/FAST is and what they do, may have to do, or will be able to do? I think everyone needs to understand the RIT/RIC/FAST from the Fire Chief down to the first day probie...If a Chief does not know what it takes to remove a downed firefighter, he does not have the true understanding of RIT...Sound easy enough send four guys in to bring oner person out, hmm try it first! People need to realize just cause there is a RIT/RIC/FAST on the scene doesnt mean bad things arent going to happen, people need to understand depending on the ailities of the RIT/RIC/FAST crew will affect the outcome, people need to also understand which I believe is not instructed enough is there may be a time when the RIT/RIC/FAST will not be sent in to make a rescue..."

Chad, I like what I think you are saying. Can you expand more on it please.

[thelurker]

chief3102 said:

First off, let me say that the discussion in the "RIT, what truck do you bring" thread started to go in this direction. I believe that a RIC Task force is a GREAT idea. I have been reading the LODD report from Prince William and one of the things in there hits on the RIT Task force. Prince William has one in their standards and was questioned as to why they were not called.

Chief, do you know what their RIT TF consists of? Do you have a link to it. The link wellingcountry put up isn't working.

[wellingcountry]

Chief, do you know what their RIT TF consists of? Do you have a link to it. The link wellingcountry put up isn't working.

Try coping the link I posted into your browerser for some reason the board is cutting off the last part of the link. I just check it and the url is correct.

[1900]

thelurker said:

1900 said:

How many people truely understand what RIT/RIC/FAST is and what they do, may have to do, or will be able to do? I think everyone needs to understand the RIT/RIC/FAST from the Fire Chief down to the first day probie...If a Chief does not know what it takes to remove a downed firefighter, he does not have the true understanding of RIT...Sound easy enough send four guys in to bring oner person out, hmm try it first! People need to realize just cause there is a RIT/RIC/FAST on the scene doesnt mean bad things arent going to happen, people need to understand depending on the ailities of the RIT/RIC/FAST crew will affect the outcome, people need to also understand which I believe is not instructed enough is there may be a time when the RIT/RIC/FAST will not be sent in to make a rescue..."

Chad, I like what I think you are saying. Can you expand more on it please.

I was trying to say a few things...
First, my company sent guys to RIT Orientation and Operations we came back and taught everyone else the techniques we learned and we were RIT...then the RIT S&T class came out and we have sent just about 99% of our people and we also usually assist in running the class...it was not until I took that class did I realize that one RIT at a fire scene was not going to be sufficient to bring a downed firefighter out. We must also realize that just because 1 RIT or 20 RITs are on scene doesnt mean we are going to be able to bring someone out, or even if we do that they are going to survive...I think people get into the false sense of security with RITs...we must also realize we may not even send in a RIT depending on the event leading up to (I wil lbe posting more on this topic in another thread)

Now onto my second point...a probie, well any firefighter for that matter needs to know what its gonna take to get him/her out in the chance he/she needs to be dragged out by a RIT (hopefully this will put a slide in their RPD...Recognition Primed Decision Making) and with that training maybe they will not take the chance they may have, or stay that extra 30 seconds, which may ultimately put them into a MAYDAY situation...not to mention ANYONE on the fire ground may have to assist the RIT with a rescue. ( I will be posting more on this in another thread). Now more importantly how many Fire Chiefs still attend classes or participate in classes/training...again I did not realize what it was going to take to get a downed firefighter out until I took RIT S&T, my grids now reflect that...while I do not always pre-designate my RITs I am calling companies capable of handling that assignment. What I am trying to say is if you as Fire Chief does notr understand what its going to take to get a downed firefighter out, how do you establish your grids...while at the same time, that extra 30 seconds you would give theguys before you pull the plug you may not now...See my point.

And lastly, abilities well we all know that goes with everything.

[chief3102]

thelurker said:

chief3102 said:

First off, let me say that the discussion in the "RIT, what truck do you bring" thread started to go in this direction. I believe that a RIC Task force is a GREAT idea. I have been reading the LODD report from Prince William and one of the things in there hits on the RIT Task force. Prince William has one in their standards and was questioned as to why they were not called.

Chief, do you know what their RIT TF consists of? Do you have a link to it. The link wellingcountry put up isn't working.

Dean,
Their TF consists of engine/ladder/rescue-squad. The policy is quoted in the LODD report. I could cut and paste it from online and email it to you.

[riverlinetk]

chief,

with the exception of the fact that two of your three rits bring an engine you guys are pretty much on par with the task force already. It is very effective having three there, full coverage of the structure for ff escape via ground ladders and hazard removal, and three companies who are consistent with what they do.

[thelurker]

wellingcountry said:

Chief, do you know what their RIT TF consists of? Do you have a link to it. The link wellingcountry put up isn't working.

Try coping the link I posted into your browerser for some reason the board is cutting off the last part of the link. I just check it and the url is correct.

There is a space in there I had to take out.

[thelurker]

chief3102 said:

thelurker said:

Chief, do you know what their RIT TF consists of? Do you have a link to it. The link wellingcountry put up isn't working.

Dean,
Their TF consists of engine/ladder/rescue-squad. The policy is quoted in the LODD report. I could cut and paste it from online and email it to you.

If it's in the LODD report, I will find it as I am day by day going thru the links on FFCLOSECALLS

[firstin312]

I think your idea for a RIT taskforce is a great one. We need to start thinking in a more capable way, for a lack of better words. So many Dept's. think they are OK in Rit areas of the Fire service, but we are only fooling ourselves. Not to pick on Dist23 but when they had the fire at Hunters Glenn Apartments they had only 1 RIT team, now I know that sources are getting tougher and tougher to get out to any call sometimes but we need to make sure that we at least protect ourselves. At least we would have more experience at the scene of a larger fire where the chances are even greater. Good idea lets keep the line of communication open about something that is important for all of us.

[wellingcountry]

I was just emailed the RIT taksforce Guidline from Baltimore Countyy Maryland. If anyone is intrested in seeing a copy send me a PM and I can email it to you. I think this is a great idea the only problem I see us having is getting the manpower and resources together to actually be able to make it work efficently. I am not to worried about nights and weekends its more of the daytime when we all are only able to only pull maybe one or two trucks. But why not try and put somthing together and try it and see how it works out. You never know how somthing is going to work unless we try it.

[9000]

The "outside the box" discussion on this topic is outstanding and is something we may need to propose. When we reorganized our RIT in 2004 we asked several ESTC Instructors to prepare and provide us with a rigorous training program on RIT operations. That hands-on course has evolved into the now RIT Strategy & Tactics Course at the ESTC. We found out many problems while taking the course including the fact that a single RIT resource is insufficient if a FF is down. FF rescue is physically demanding and requires more than four RIT FF's. We have taken that education and used it in our grids to provide two RIT resources on the All Hands and an additional RIT on our regional cover. The initial two are a Rescue-Engine and a Rescue. This allows us to have RIT / Rescue resources covering A/B and C/D areas with a third in the cover ready to respond if the initial two are deployed.

I absolutely like the idea of a RIT Task Force especially for major jobs.

[WebBoss]

9000 said:

I absolutely like the idea of a RIT Task Force especially for major jobs.

Glad you like it, because a proposal policy will be in your inbox in a week or two.

I promise though I send that other email first.