Firefighter II

[thecutman]

Dave,

I couldn't agree more. Speaking of HazMat Tech I feel there should be recurrency training for these types of programs. Just like the EMT program. This is a skill that you need to practice on and you should be proficient in. I am a tech and haven't practiced the skills in a while. Maybe the county will come up with a re-currency/refresher program and maybe the state police would get onboard. That is another issue, The state police run the TTT programs for the HazMat Technician programs and they do not coordinate anything with the DFS. We need to get the EMS, State Police and DFS all on board with some lines of communication and sharing of certifications.

[papacheese]

daveconstantine said:

WOW, awesome posts, great discussion!!!!!!!!
For what it is worth.....I think there should be levels Statewide, not to put money in their pockets but to relieve some of the "I just graduated FF1 and now I am taking Haz-Mat Tech class". We all learn from classroom and practical sessions. Allow sometime between FF1 and FF2 much like in the IMS Level 1 system; so much from now until then. Take classes as proposed by cutman to reach levels of certification and provide for realistic (not saying the practicals now are not) practical sessions to go with the classroom. Papacheese loves the testing by paper theory (not a bash) which has great results for instructors, but practical sessions help cement the paper to street concept.

Grandfathering personnel to this level or re-certing people to this level to me will not make difference. The dressmeup bouqets will still get through the process. What I mean is start with the new recruits, provide levels of training for those that want to get the cert and let the rest go much like the 1990 version of FF1 cert. There will be a gap in the certification system anyway from those that do no want to re-cert.

Actually, I favor BOTH written and practical tests....our work is BOTH knowledge and skill-based, especially now more than ever. Problem is (IMHO), the knowledge part is often shunted aside because it isn't "fun" or reminds us of sitting in high school. Ten years ago it wasn't a big deal, but in this day and age of haz-mat, EMS, terrorism response/WMD, and hazardous construction, it's vital component...and in the end, YOU HAVE TO BE ACTUALLY ABLE DO IT TOO.

My on-going problem, cutman and Chief, is that DFS will typically mis-match materials and tests, thereby invalidating any results. From an educational standpoint, it's simply ridiculous.

Until there is a true "national standard" accepted by all fifty states, we're always going to have these problems.

[chief3102]

papacheese said:

daveconstantine said:

WOW, awesome posts, great discussion!!!!!!!!
For what it is worth.....I think there should be levels Statewide, not to put money in their pockets but to relieve some of the "I just graduated FF1 and now I am taking Haz-Mat Tech class". We all learn from classroom and practical sessions. Allow sometime between FF1 and FF2 much like in the IMS Level 1 system; so much from now until then. Take classes as proposed by cutman to reach levels of certification and provide for realistic (not saying the practicals now are not) practical sessions to go with the classroom. Papacheese loves the testing by paper theory (not a bash) which has great results for instructors, but practical sessions help cement the paper to street concept.

Grandfathering personnel to this level or re-certing people to this level to me will not make difference. The dressmeup bouqets will still get through the process. What I mean is start with the new recruits, provide levels of training for those that want to get the cert and let the rest go much like the 1990 version of FF1 cert. There will be a gap in the certification system anyway from those that do no want to re-cert.

Actually, I favor BOTH written and practical tests....our work is BOTH knowledge and skill-based, especially now more than ever. Problem is (IMHO), the knowledge part is often shunted aside because it isn't "fun" or reminds us of sitting in high school. Ten years ago it wasn't a big deal, but in this day and age of haz-mat, EMS, terrorism response/WMD, and hazardous construction, it's vital component...and in the end, YOU HAVE TO BE ACTUALLY ABLE DO IT TOO.

My on-going problem, cutman and Chief, is that DFS will typically mis-match materials and tests, thereby invalidating any results. From an educational standpoint, it's simply ridiculous.

Until there is a true "national standard" accepted by all fifty states, we're always going to have these problems.

Where to begin...........Actually, I believe that until the politicians get their hands out of DFS and their pockets, the problem will continue. The current Governor and several before him look at the DFS as a cash cow. Until they stop robbing the money that is intended for training, and fully staff the units that are already in place in the Division, nothing much of anything will happen. Look at the current state of the ICS training. The classes are a joke that are put on by the NJSP. I have had guys come back from the classes laughing that the hardest part of the class was the drive getting there and then trying to stay awake.

(breathing deeply over and over and over)

Okay....CHief and Papa will tell you that I firmly believe in training. So, please don't take this the wrong way. I have been to many classes that are just a joke and others that were great. I believe that there should be a mix of classroom and hands on. As far as certifications are concerned, Like Papa I agree that until there is a National Standard, nothing much will change. Read my previous response on Sandboxes. New Jersey is the biggest sandbox of all. The DFS will tell you that we are adopting national standards and then put a NEW JERSEY EDITION addendum on it that basically strips the meat out of it.

Ans lastly, I agree with Chief with the "I just took FF1 and now I'm in HazMat Tech etc." Enthusiasm is a great thing but too many times when we rush a FF through the whole damn list of classes offered at the BCESTC, all we are doing is planting the seed which will grow into one giant Garden Gnome.

Rant over..........mea culpa..........Lord I apologize and be with the starving Pygmies down there in New Guniea...............

[papacheese]

Deep breaths, '02....

I don't want to come across as being entirely negative; it just seems as though there's little cohesion in what's required, what's taught, and what's really needed. To answer your thoughts, I'm working on a matrix that our people will have to follow, ie: you will NOT be permitted to take Haz-Mat Tech right out of FF1, but Engine Company Ops instead.....

I am certain that the Division is trying it's damnest to produce a workable system, but there's still a wide gap between concept and execution...not all their fault either.

In the end, we only have ourselves to blame for this mess...which doesn't appear to be getting any better. WE were the ones who built our own little sandboxes, buried our collective heads in it, and refused to share our crayons. Too many years of narrow-minded "we've always done it that way" thinking despite statistics that clearly point to a need for change...and still we refused. Enter OSHA, PEOSHA, NFPA, and NIOSH...all empowered by regulation or consensus to make changes so we stop dying uselessly. We hardly have the moral standing to protest, even if their efforts ar e a bit off base at times...instead we continue howling at the moon....

Time to go soak my head again....

[shader101]

i like the matrix idea, instead of a hodge podge take anything after ff1 , a logical order to follow to reach a specific goal, thanks chief x3105 for another good idea

[chief3102]

papacheese said:

Deep breaths, '02....

I don't want to come across as being entirely negative; it just seems as though there's little cohesion in what's required, what's taught, and what's really needed. To answer your thoughts, I'm working on a matrix that our people will have to follow, ie: you will NOT be permitted to take Haz-Mat Tech right out of FF1, but Engine Company Ops instead.....

I am certain that the Division is trying it's damnest to produce a workable system, but there's still a wide gap between concept and execution...not all their fault either.

In the end, we only have ourselves to blame for this mess...which doesn't appear to be getting any better. WE were the ones who built our own little sandboxes, buried our collective heads in it, and refused to share our crayons. Too many years of narrow-minded "we've always done it that way" thinking despite statistics that clearly point to a need for change...and still we refused. Enter OSHA, PEOSHA, NFPA, and NIOSH...all empowered by regulation or consensus to make changes so we stop dying uselessly. We hardly have the moral standing to protest, even if their efforts ar e a bit off base at times...instead we continue howling at the moon....

Time to go soak my head again....

Thanks Papa, I should have soaked my head first.......Your reply is on the money!