vent1
Forum Candidate
Posts: 4
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Post by vent1 on Feb 6, 2009 16:43:49 GMT -5
Tower ladders easier or harder to work off of then straight sticks?
Residential ?
commercial ?
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Post by FirstDue312 on Feb 7, 2009 3:27:57 GMT -5
I can only speak from limited experience (aka 3125, straight stick) and can say its the easiest (bc its the only once ive been on!). Curious to see what the veterans thinks of the difference in ladder trucks
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Post by thelurker on Feb 7, 2009 14:30:19 GMT -5
I have used straight sticks, Snorkels, and Ladder Tower, and have learned that every type of ladder has a specialty. That being said, a well trained and skilled truck crew can work magic with any truck. Apparatus placement with a ladder truck is paramount. You can always add another section of hose, but good luck finding a functional "Rung Stretcher" when your ladder comes up short.
I prefer a straight stick over a Tower for pretty much every operation. They are quick to set up, quick to climb, and are capable of using the tip to knock out windows for the operator who is working alone. It is also very easy to bring ambulatory victims down, and slide Stokes Baskets down them using the top rail.
Now where a Tower Ladder or Ladder Tower does come in handy is for venting steep roofs and doing what's called "scrubbing" when the apparatus is placed on the corner and able to work 2 sides of a building. Also, on nice capability that towers have is their ability to work below 0 degrees incline, and using the master stream through the front door of large commercial structures (FDNY style). Another very nice feature shared by most if not all bucket trucks is the operator controls up in the bucket. Allowing the firefighter in the bucket to pick his destination is sometimes better, because he isn't 75' + away from the tip.
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Post by cmcollier on Feb 8, 2009 15:12:39 GMT -5
For anything with a flat roof (commercial or residential) a tower ladder isn't going to help you with roof operations other than getting you to the roof. For access and egress from flat roofs I like an aerial ladder due to them being quick and easy to set up.
For peaked roof ventilation I prefer a tower ladder. If it is a conventionally framed roof with a walkable pitch get on the roof, cut a hole, and get off. If the pitch is too steep to walk or it is of truss construction you are better off operating out of the tower ladder bucket and opening up the gable end.
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Post by fireman1190 on Feb 8, 2009 15:47:29 GMT -5
all my experience on fires has been with a Tower Ladder, and I have to say they excel in the areas of aerial master stream usage.
for doing a vent on a peaked roof I find the aerial device really awkward to work from, especially if the ridgeline of the roof is perpendicular to the street. you end up leaning out the bucket at a wierd angle, and with fire around and a running chainsaw, its kind of awkward. I would assume a straight stick would be easier but I have no personal experience with that
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Post by soon2bfdny on Feb 8, 2009 20:56:21 GMT -5
i think tower ladder are a much more versatile ladder. aerials pretty much serve one purpose and that is to get people to the roof. tower ladder normally have a water way and are better to use to rescue someone from a window. plus setting up a ladder from the turntable is much more difficult than controlling it from the bucket for accuracy. of course tower ladders are normally bigger and more of a pain in the ass to position due to there size but i would definately rather a tower on the scene than a aerial due to there versatility. but i think the set up time is pretty much the same. it just depends on the crew
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ENG27SQ
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Post by ENG27SQ on Feb 9, 2009 13:02:02 GMT -5
i think tower ladder are a much more versatile ladder. aerials pretty much serve one purpose and that is to get people to the roof. tower ladder normally have a water way and are better to use to rescue someone from a window. plus setting up a ladder from the turntable is much more difficult than controlling it from the bucket for accuracy. of course tower ladders are normally bigger and more of a pain in the ass to position due to there size but i would definately rather a tower on the scene than a aerial due to there versatility. but i think the set up time is pretty much the same. it just depends on the crew Just my 2 cents here, don't forget that some aerials are also prepiped with a gun on the tip. PErsonally, I've never used either a straight stik or a tower but for rescueing vics from windows I'd think a bucket would be more of a PITA but I don't know from experience just from looking at things. |
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Reverend
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Post by Reverend on Feb 9, 2009 18:51:48 GMT -5
I have also worked of of all types of aerials. Each has its appropraite use. However like everything else the situation dictates. Building size, type, rescues, trees, etc. It all matters. If I had my choice I would go with a rear mount straight stick and a 75ft Mack Baker Aerialscope. Thats right not the 95ft scope I would buy a old 75ft and refurb it, by far the most versatile tower device ever for north american firefighting.
Snorkels have limited residential applications and I dont know why any department buys a rear mounted ladder tower, I have rarely seen one positioned correctly.
Remember even if you have the best aerial out there it shouldnt ever beat your ground ladders to the building. It is one device your portable ladders are 4-6 devices
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ENG27SQ
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Post by ENG27SQ on Feb 9, 2009 21:05:36 GMT -5
It is one device your portable ladders are 4-6 devices Well said. |
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Post by FirstDue312 on Feb 10, 2009 19:17:57 GMT -5
Along the lines of what the good Rev said, whatever your department has is the best. If you cant use your own tools to the best of their ability and know their nuances, its not doing your training any justice.
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Post by soon2bfdny on Feb 10, 2009 21:17:08 GMT -5
I have also worked of of all types of aerials. Each has its appropraite use. However like everything else the situation dictates. Building size, type, rescues, trees, etc. It all matters. If I had my choice I would go with a rear mount straight stick and a 75ft Mack Baker Aerialscope. Thats right not the 95ft scope I would buy a old 75ft and refurb it, by far the most versatile tower device ever for north american firefighting. Snorkels have limited residential applications and I dont know why any department buys a rear mounted ladder tower, I have rarely seen one positioned correctly. Remember even if you have the best aerial out there it shouldnt ever beat your ground ladders to the building. It is one device your portable ladders are 4-6 devices i agree with you about the ground ladders but i dont understand how a 75 ft scope is more versatile than a 95 ft scope. plus i dont think there are any 95 footers, i think they only made 75 |
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Post by fireman1190 on Feb 10, 2009 21:48:53 GMT -5
i agree with you about the ground ladders but i dont understand how a 75 ft scope is more versatile than a 95 ft scope. plus i dont think there are any 95 footers, i think they only made 75 I believe 1615 is a 95 footer though I can't be sure. I think one thing to consider is that each manufacturer has a different style of bucket. Some have the doors on the corners (American La France/ LTI?), which I think would be very useful for roof venting. Others like Sutphen just have one door in the center. I have personal experience with sutphens and think they can be awkward for roof venting (especially on a peaked roof where the ridgeline is perpendicular to the street as I mentioned earlier). However, I'd rather rescue people from an upper floor with a Sutphen or equivalent that has the door in the center. Therefore we see that even within the world of tower ladders some are better than others in certain scenarios. You can't have a truck that is good in every situation. It needs to be an individual department decision based on the needs of your local. |
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ENG27SQ
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Post by ENG27SQ on Feb 10, 2009 22:47:22 GMT -5
I believe 1615 is a 95 footer though I can't be sure. Correct, 1615 is a 95' MMTL |
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ENG27SQ
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Post by ENG27SQ on Feb 10, 2009 22:48:55 GMT -5
I have also worked of of all types of aerials. Each has its appropraite use. However like everything else the situation dictates. Building size, type, rescues, trees, etc. It all matters. If I had my choice I would go with a rear mount straight stick and a 75ft Mack Baker Aerialscope. Thats right not the 95ft scope I would buy a old 75ft and refurb it, by far the most versatile tower device ever for north american firefighting. Snorkels have limited residential applications and I dont know why any department buys a rear mounted ladder tower, I have rarely seen one positioned correctly. Remember even if you have the best aerial out there it shouldnt ever beat your ground ladders to the building. It is one device your portable ladders are 4-6 devices i agree with you about the ground ladders but i dont understand how a 75 ft scope is more versatile than a 95 ft scope. plus i dont think there are any 95 footers, i think they only made 75 Depending how the truck is designed can mean the world in how versatile the truck can be. Midmounts can be the best thing for your department for your 1st due, others maybe a rear mount suits them best. |
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Post by thelurker on Feb 11, 2009 1:22:15 GMT -5
I think one thing to consider is that each manufacturer has a different style of bucket. Some have the doors on the corners (American La France/ LTI?), which I think would be very useful for roof venting. Others like Sutphen just have one door in the center. I have personal experience with sutphens and think they can be awkward for roof venting (especially on a peaked roof where the ridgeline is perpendicular to the street as I mentioned earlier). However, I'd rather rescue people from an upper floor with a Sutphen or equivalent that has the door in the center. Therefore we see that even within the world of tower ladders some are better than others in certain scenarios. You can't have a truck that is good in every situation. It needs to be an individual department decision based on the needs of your local. This is a great point |
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Post by thelurker on Feb 11, 2009 1:26:43 GMT -5
and BTW guys,
1615 from the BC Fire Chief's resource book:
"1615 1500 GPM 1997 FWD Aerialscope 95' Twr Ladder - Imager - AED"
The Rev was speaking about Mack/Baker Aerialscopes
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
Posts: 84
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Post by Reverend on Feb 11, 2009 7:45:18 GMT -5
I have also worked of of all types of aerials. Each has its appropraite use. However like everything else the situation dictates. Building size, type, rescues, trees, etc. It all matters. If I had my choice I would go with a rear mount straight stick and a 75ft Mack Baker Aerialscope. Thats right not the 95ft scope I would buy a old 75ft and refurb it, by far the most versatile tower device ever for north american firefighting. Snorkels have limited residential applications and I dont know why any department buys a rear mounted ladder tower, I have rarely seen one positioned correctly. Remember even if you have the best aerial out there it shouldnt ever beat your ground ladders to the building. It is one device your portable ladders are 4-6 devices i agree with you about the ground ladders but i dont understand how a 75 ft scope is more versatile than a 95 ft scope. plus i dont think there are any 95 footers, i think they only made 75 Aerialscopes come in two sizes 75ft and 95ft. During the 70's-80's 75ft was the most popular, now its the 95ft. Camdens TL-3 is a modern day 75ft. The versatility lies in the fact that the older 75ft had a single axle rear and a shorter main section thus allowing the truck to remain shorter overall. Now all aerialscopes are on tandem axles no matter what the size, unless they are refurbs. They have effectively had to make the design a monster becuse of new standards, which have aided in the trucks being to big with lots of rear swing. |
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Post by voyager9 on Feb 11, 2009 8:41:54 GMT -5
Our Quint's are 75" sticks while our tower is 95". I haven't used the quint's much since they're not at our station though.
My opinion is the straight stick's are easier to move and position since they don't have the weight of the bucket at the tip and tend to be lighter weight in general. Makes them feel more responsive on the controls so their easier to move around tight quarters..trees..etc.
The towers make for better platforms to work from for roof ops. They've got the controls at the tip so the guys there can do the up-close work rather than the operator playing the geometry-game from 75+ feet away. Also, if the ladder is going to be moving, I'd rather the guys be in a bucket then on a stick as there is less chance of getting something "pinched".
Good point about the access doors on the buckets. I've only used one with the corner-doors and found them fairly convenient. I imagine civilians would find a bucket with center-doors more comfortable then either corner-doors or a straight stick.
Lurker, you mentioned that you thought a straight stick was better for getting a stokes basket down? Can you go into more detail? Seems to me a bucket would be easier for that since there is room in the bucket for attendants and the stocks secures right to the top/side of the bucket. I'm trying to picture how it would work with a stick..
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Post by soon2bfdny on Feb 11, 2009 11:07:27 GMT -5
i would think corner doors would be ideal because unless you have the ladder aligned perfectly straight at the window, center doors would be difficult to get someone in the bucket. corner or side doors gives you 2 options for getting someone in and 9 times out of 10 you come to a window on an angle
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Post by breakingsomemirror on Feb 12, 2009 9:59:56 GMT -5
I agree with most of the posters that each one (stick vs. bucket) has it's place. I guess it's what your department's needs are that should determine what you're using. Having used everything from a 75' stick to a 105' bucket, they each have there advantages and disadvantages. Sticks are great for their ease of use and manuverability. You can cut off of them, good for gaining access to rooftops and they are great for arial master stream use. Buckets are useful for "picking" victims from windows, balconies and the like and are a good stable working platform. You can also cut off of one of these. The set up of the doors is critical as to how easy it will be to do certain functions. Personally, I'm partical to mid-mount set ups. My all time favorite has to be the old 1615 (not the current 95' Mothership!  ). It was a midmount 75' bucket from the mid-70;s and that truck was fantastic! Easy to use, set up and could fit in a lot of places. Really miss that truck. My second favorite is da Sham's straight stick 2235 (very easy to set up, good manuverability and for being a double axel truck, can fit in most tight spots). My "worst" has to be the rearmount combination of MLFD's old 3615 (102' Arialcat, yes, the stop-drop-roll truck!) and da Sham's current 2215 (105' Seagrave Apollo, one of the worst trucks ever made! There's a reason they only built 8 of them! ) Both were big, slow, bulky, pain in the asses to set up and so full of "idiot" lights and "safety" features that they were/are a pain in the ass to use. As a side note, I know that a lot of people slam the 75' rearmount quints that some departments have (like MLFD) but after having seen them in action, I think they have a definite place. What I like about them is that they are easy to use and can fit in a lot of places that other ladders can't. Some, like the aforementioned 2215, you need the area of aircraft landing strip to manuver the stupid thing and set it up. If you don't have the "perfect" are to set it up, free of cars and other obstructions, forget about it. It just becomes a glorified tool box. Long live the Baker Arialscope! Thanks and stay safe. |
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[My5:]
). It was a midmount 75' bucket from the mid-70;s and that truck was fantastic! Easy to use, set up and could fit in a lot of places. Really miss that truck. My second favorite is da Sham's straight stick 2235 (very easy to set up, good manuverability and for being a double axel truck, can fit in most tight spots). My "worst" has to be the rearmount combination of MLFD's old 3615 (102' Arialcat, yes, the stop-drop-roll truck!) and da Sham's current 2215 (105' Seagrave Apollo, one of the worst trucks ever made! There's a reason they only built 8 of them!