Consolidation of departments - same yet different

[breakingsomemirror]

Ok, so we've gotten some very good discussion about the idea of a countywide fire department, in one form or another.

Now, let me through this idea out there. What do you think the chances are that we will start to see some departments begin to consolidate into a more regional department (ie, North Hudson Regional)?

I mean, it makes sense. The state is pushing for "share services" and would probably through some money at some departments that wanted to investigate it. We have more and varied type calls than we've ever had (fires, MVA's, Haz-Mat's, CO's, alarm systems, etc.) and more often than not, less people to do the job.

Do you think that any department(s) in this county have the courage to step up, take a look in the mirror and agree to at least look at it? How about actually having the big brass balls to actually do it?

I'll start with my $.02 worth. Personally, I think there are a few areas in this county where it should be looked at. I'm not saying that we need to run and shut down stations but perhaps in some instances, it may have to be done. Realistically, I don't think anybody is going to be willing to break down the walls of their "sandbox" and let the sand mix with others, if you know what I'm saying.

I can hear it now, "Yep, that's a good idea. We don't need all this stuff. Just don't take anything from me and we'll be fine!" : )

I think it's going to come to a head sometime and I'm just curious if anybody out there thinks their department(s) will step up when it's gut check time and actually do it.

[papacheese]

OK...I'll bite....here's my stream of consciousness..

Logically and in principle, it simply makes sense to consolidate where applicable. Realistically? It's not going to happen without a lot of sturm und drang.

The State thinks that offering money to consolidate will entice some to consider it....in some cases, principally municipal departments, I think that's a pretty good enticement, provided that the deparrtment's most important asset - the members - go along with it.

Other than that, where's the enticement? Asking someone to commit job, career, title, and/or status suicide is a pretty tall order. Mind you, it CAN be done (I think), but not within the confines of the fire service, meaning it will probably take a outside agency with the chuzpah and authority needed to make consolidation happen.

This isn't intended to be pessimistic or negative, just simply realistic. Historically speaking, the fire service is notorious for ignoring and resisting change, regardless of how much sense it makes....witness OSHA, PEOSHA, NFPA, NIOSH, and all the other alphabet agencies that in the past have felt compelled to impose regulations in order to make us conform.

I've been told that a consensus has been building at the State level to come up with a "carrot and stick" approach to the problem - offer municipalities funding for projects if they can show that they've been attempting to "consolidate" their services...police, fire, EMS, public works, recreation, etc. The State likes this concept because someone else - in this case the town government - would be the one who has to use the stick, not them. Depending on the amount being offered, it might get enticing enough for them to actually do something....although the recent budget crisis will no doubt put the brakes on this approach.....hard.

[shader101]

since we became a municipal dept after losing a battle to become a fire dist in 84, our operating budget from the township hasn't changed, so from a political standpiont we are cheap. $1 in 84 =$ 0.45 in2008 cpi. though not merged in name, dist 31 responds to 99% of our working calls at their taxpayers expence, thanks papa cheeze

[1900]

Im in...In for it...

For example (AND THIS IS STRICTLY MY OPINION, being a member of both companies and my grandfather being one of the founding members of 185, and me being a life long resident of 185s local)...

185 is roughly 2 miles from 191...in all honesty there isnt a call that we dont beat them to. However there are 2 engines, a tender and a brush truck at 185. And its no secret that staffing is an issue there. Now we have two engines and a utility...in my opinion we could keep two engines, the tender, the bt and the utility and be fine. That would rid the fleet of atleast two engines. (its a start). Being that we have the new(er) fire house then it would only make sense to move into there. Or the more costly option would be to build a fire house centrally/tactically. Now with their understaffing, it would only add to our staffed units. So instead of responding with an understaffed rig or not resopnding at all those members would staff rigs.

We have also offered our building to 199. They could and would still be Pemberton First Aid Squad, but just in one building. Sharing the bills instead of paying utilities and up keep on two building. It could also help with staffing issues on both sides. There has been alot of iterest in the property that the squad building is located on, which would not only bring money into the squad but it would be a ratable for the town.

Myself and Chief Pratt joke seriously wishing our departments could combine. With the dedicated and motivated members that both of our agencies have, what a department we would have. But you are talking three municipalities and who know what else...I wouldnt even know where to start. Honestly.

As long as its for the right reasons, it only makes sense.

[papacheese]

Dec 19, 2008 13:32:59 GMT -5 shader101 said:

since we became a municipal dept after losing a battle to become a fire dist in 84, our operating budget from the township hasn't changed, so from a political standpiont we are cheap. $1 in 84 =$ 0.45 in2008 cpi. though not merged in name, dist 31 responds to 99% of our working calls at their taxpayers expence, thanks papa cheeze

You're welcome, shader....and you guys return the favor for us by responding to all calls in our high hazard area. Here's a thought for everyone to ponder: many departments, including mine, own three or four pieces of apparatus...how many times do all of them respond with full staffing? I keep telling my people that an apparatus without the correct number of firefighters is almost (but not quite) useless for a working incident. Clawing back through the memory banks, I'm hard pressed to recall many working jobs that required more than two engines in dedicated service....(this does not apply to my non-hydranted brothers who require multiple tenders to establish a shuttle operation).

Absent any pre-agreed arrangement, most jurisdictions cannot justify reducing their apparatus or stations as conditions can and do change over time. Does Maple Shade determine the number and type of apparatus they need based on what's sitting in my station? Does Motown do the same? The decision to purchase a vehicle or build a station has an exceedingly long cycle - twenty years or better. Will response/availability change over that time period, leaving a jurisdiction bare of resources? Remember while pondering this that the elements of time and distance are crucial factors, especially if you're dispatching resources for the initial response. The company/department that you're depending on to consistently respond with a fully-staffed engine or ladder could experience a decline in members or funding - we've all seen this happen over the years. That's why a carefully thought out, mutally agreeable, realistically structured "consolidation" needs to take place...

[voyager9]

Dec 19, 2008 11:53:25 GMT -5 papacheese said:

The State thinks that offering money to consolidate will entice some to consider it....in some cases, principally municipal departments, I think that's a pretty good enticement, provided that the deparrtment's most important asset - the members - go along with it.

I can see how consolidation of resources could be good for the jurisdictions involved.. but how does it help the state? How does 191 and 185 merging directly help the State? While I'm sure it would benefit the people, I'm not so sure that's the motivation. If helping the citizens were the motivation then the State would be doing/not doing a lot of other things too.

[gotwork]

I think one misconception in this whole situatiuon is the theory that equipment needs to be reduced or someone has to give up their sandbox for someone else to do it for them. That is not always the case. Equipment can be weeded out through attrition. As it reaches its service life, the decision can be made then on what the future holds for your area then act on that research. There are many "regions" throughout our county that could use consolidation as an asset to better service. For example these consolidations could improve operational procedures for some departments just by "merging" officers, training, purchasing, etc.... Think about how many departments could benfit from the training officer next door, but won't because he's not one of us or he thinks he's better than us. Look at those big boxes we keep hearing. It works!!!! We all need to be realists, our departments can all guarantee the first piece (except MTL and SHAM). After that it is a crap shoot. So if you set you responses up to meet minimum standards (1720), then if you get more than one peice out it is gravy!! I set my grids up to have 3 engines (attack, supply, RIT) 1 truck, and 1 rescue for each structures initial alarm. All companies adds a dedicated RIT company to the assignment. This should handle 95% percent of the working fires in our town. I don't have to call for more resurces too late into the incident, they are already rolling. It also improves the working relationships within the crews. They work together all the time. Cities use tyhe box concept and it works for them, we are not any different except we are a little further apart. Construction is changing so any difference we are going to make is in the first ten minutes.

I know for a fact that the RV area would benefit greatly by a "merger". It doesn't have to be a loss of identity or stations. There are only five now (fire only). But the EMS could also come on board and then it would be that much better. Just a reallocation of the equipment already in the region and a unified system for command, procedures, safety, policies, responses, training, etc.. You get my point. The beginning would be sharing resources and creating a "psuedo" department name.... I suggest Rancocas Valley Emergency Services. Then you start to share. Where it goes from there could be dictated as it happens. Change is not always easy, but if taken slowly in smaller increments it seems to be handled better.

There are other "regions" that could do them same thing that could work well. I think that if we all looked at your regions and started there, then the county based fire department would not be that hard to accept and then it would be done our way (the fire service community) instead of their way (political world) which definitley would not have us in mind. This is the future of our service, it is just a matter of who wants to do it for us, I prefer us doing it for us. The way we want to do it, that best fits maintaining our best assets..... OUR PEOPLE!!!

[voyager9]

Dec 22, 2008 11:50:57 GMT -5 gotwork said:

We all need to be realists, our departments can all guarantee the first piece (except MTL and SHAM). After that it is a crap shoot.

Huh? Curious why those two towns were singled out.

[voyager9]

I am in full agreement with the idea of consolidated grids, training, SOG's..etc. I also think most of us are already moving in that direction.
I think the combined training is intriguing. It would be great if when a department holds special training they invite the county, or at least their mutual aid to participate.

[gotwork]

Dec 22, 2008 15:24:18 GMT -5 voyager9 said:

Dec 22, 2008 11:50:57 GMT -5 gotwork said:

We all need to be realists, our departments can all guarantee the first piece (except MTL and SHAM). After that it is a crap shoot.

Huh? Curious why those two towns were singled out.

They have more than one unit staffed at one time.

[pickemoff]

thats a good one!!!!! ;D

[actanonverba]

Eloquently worded. A great concept.