MTC #45

[papacheese]

This next one is offered courtesy of fireman1190, who sent the following picture for your MTc perusal:



There's a lot going on here; many factors to take into consideration. Pat didn't mention where this was (he's also a member of an out-of-state department) but that he was involved in the proceedings....as we get some of your thoughts together, hopefully he'll gieve us some more info and pictures to see what ended up happening.

For this MTC, let assume you're the first due officer arriving either in POV or the engine...the picture is what you see. You have another engine with three a minute out and a truck with three two minutes out. Let's also assume it's what it appears to be: a rurual setting without hydrants.

Do your size-up, then make the call: Offensive, Transitional, or Defensive, then explain why.

[fireman1190]

uhh, i cant remember why the stormdoor is laying on the ground but i'm pretty sure we put it there. it is not a clue or anything.

Remember to do a 360 on this house! I don't know how papacheese wants to run this scenario. If someone asks, I'll tell you what we found on side C

[thelurker]

It looks to me like a 1 story front, 2 story rear SFD. Seems to be heavy smoke, but I can't even get an idea of where the fire might be located. My first guess will be in the converted basement. The reason for my guess on that is that it looks like there is smoke coming from the sill plate area along the D-side. I think some serious venting would do this job a lot of good.

So the call;
Upon arrival, Transmit a working fire and request additional resources. Do a 360, meet with people outside and try to determine occupancy. Determine the need for immediate rescue or TI-TO. When the 2nd engine arrives we will go offensive. First engine pull the line. Chauf also pull the 2nd line for a back-up line. The 360 will have told me where the best point of entry will be for the line. Upon arrival of the Truck, Get the roof opened up and relieve some of that smoke pressure. Then find the fire and put it out.

[papacheese]

Good eye, lurker....never caught that....plus, if it's pushing out of a sill plate, that would probably indicate a decent amount of pressure, ie: heat.....

[fireman1190]

yeah you're very observant. smoke was pushing out anywhere it could go... including around the water spicket for the garden hose

[thelurker]

that much pressure...better vent it before it goes up in a big ball of flames.

[papacheese]

Since MTC is apparently now officially defunct, I guess I would ask the following questions: based on the picture, what do you think is the best way to ventilate?

Do you think it's a basement fire? If so, does that change your ventilation technique and location?

I'm not saying I have any answers...jsut wondering what everyone's thought processes are....

[fireman1190]

let me add my two cents...

This IS a basement fire. You guys were right on the ball with those comments. Unfortunately, fire had already spread up the open stairs into the 1st floor and straight to the front door upon arrival. This heat made it difficult to get inside.

Our 360 revealed that it was self-vented on the back side. We chose not to break the front windows, since it was already vented on one side, and I feel like if we did, it would have spread the fire worse through the house. I didn't make the decision but I agreed with it. What do you guys think?

This was in WV not Burlington County, and we only had about 6 firefighters who were qualified/able to go inside. We had a couple mutual aid departments there, but unfortunately they were no help at all. I don't mean to bash other departments but when they stand outside and spray water at a hole in the roof with fire coming out of it, I can't help it. Thats another issue.
The point is with such limited manpower we could not effectively vent that house.

as for my opinion....
venting the roof on a basement fire may not be the best course of action, as it could spread the fire up. However, this house is so charged with hot gas and smoke that I feel it may be the best way.

this is the fire after it got through the roof....

[thelurker]

Rick, i missed that you asked about the venting on this job. I think a roof vent, dead center of the house would work. Don't be afraid to make it 6x6, the less restriction the better. As was stated, the fire extended up the open interior stairwell. if you could determine where the stairwell is, the vent above it. that would make a great chimney, and get all that pressure out forthwith.

[papacheese]

Good point, lurker...which brings up another aspect of size-up and assessment that should be practiced on a regular basis: looking at a dwelling and being able to "read" where the stairway should be.

[fireman1190]

good call on venting directly above the stairwell.

Heres a photo that lets you actually see the house better without so much smoke.

The stairwell was straight in, about 10-12 feet inside the front door.

[WebBoss]

Jan 14, 2009 12:50:22 GMT -5 fireman1190 said:

good call on venting directly above the stairwell.

Heres a photo that lets you actually see the house better without so much smoke.

The stairwell was straight in, about 10-12 feet inside the front door.

Without trying to armchair quarterback, now seeing the fire was down on the side towards the garage, I think I would focus a crew on opening the garage door (better yet, remove it) and remove the connecting door between the garage and the house. By square footage, this is going to provide as much or more vent area then a 4x4 in the roof and should help to draw the fire away from the living portions of the house. Since those areas should be opened up anyways, I simply feel this may be a better way to manage the incident while dealing with limited manpower.

Of course, there's always 2 schools of thought to every incident.

[fireman1190]

thats a good thought.

in this case, we did open up the garage but not until well into the incident.

also, the garage did not have a doorway connecting it to the house.