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Post by WebBoss on Oct 11, 2008 8:53:29 GMT -5
I want to share this comment I stole from PFN's forums, under Camden County. Please check out their forums. This is regarding Camden County restructuring what they call a Squad Company (our Rescue Engine).
See... it's not just us. Now only if we can get some of our "brothern" to start being good at what they are and not trying to be something they're not... we would all be so much better off.
Just a little rant in hopes to stir up friendly, constructive conversations once again.
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1900
Forum Captain
Posts: 103
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Post by 1900 on Oct 13, 2008 23:22:37 GMT -5
This too funny...well the apparatus typing committee that I was on actually met with Camden County in an attempt to mirror what was already invented, and since several Burl Co departments utilize Camden County it only made sense in the grand scheme of things...but who are we and what do we know...(Chief Constantine, Chief Pratt, Chief Augustoni, Chief Pearson and myself)...
Anyway in speaking with Camden County they had insituted the apparatus typing and after its implementation and a couple jobs they realized there were issues that needed to be tweaked, which is what it looks like they did...
But hey as long as we can call ourselves something were not, who cares if we cant benefit the Pt. or the people we are here to protect, including our own.
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gotwork
Special Operations Command 
Doin' It Our Way
Posts: 73
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Post by gotwork on Oct 14, 2008 13:59:02 GMT -5
Chad
I fully support the work that you and the other Chief's put into your reccomendations. The theory behind actually saying give me a rescue and the dispatchers can get you the next rescue and it has all the tools you actually need(reason for requesting) would be awesome. But that is not the idea of others who just will not let our service progress......... SQUAD is a great concept but somehow EMS agencies get to tell us that it is their ambulance agencies title and you cant have it!!! Last I checked they we BLS units or Ambulances. But I am the Chief (well acting) of a Fire Based EMS agency so I just don't understand.
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
Posts: 84
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Post by Reverend on Oct 14, 2008 20:49:36 GMT -5
The Squad is a speciality unit and designation. Those who commit to the advanced training and capability should own the title also. The problem is its new to the county, and the EMS corpses in this county just dont get it. They arent even suppose to use the Squad designation anymore. I am f'in tired of the non-responding, self proclaimed leaders in this county bending over backwards to please everyone. Do what is right, keep with the times and man up. If EMS dosnt like the use of the proper Squad terminolgy, then quit, because you clearly have your head up your ***. SQUADSMAN
And by the way. The POWERCALL saves lives. It says so on their website.
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Post by WebBoss on Oct 17, 2008 11:09:30 GMT -5
The Squad is a speciality unit and designation. Those who commit to the advanced training and capability should own the title also. The problem is its new to the county, and the EMS corpses in this county just dont get it. They arent even suppose to use the Squad designation anymore. I am f'in tired of the non-responding, self proclaimed leaders in this county bending over backwards to please everyone. Do what is right, keep with the times and man up. If EMS dosnt like the use of the proper Squad terminolgy, then quit, because you clearly have your head up your ***. SQUADSMANAnd by the way. The POWERCALL saves lives. It says so on their website. I agree 100% except for one thing... the POWERCALL does not save lives... the people on OUR rig does though. lol ;D All kidding aside, I was hoping to catch you with that post Rev. Putting all of my affiliations aside, it is my own opinion that the reason "Squad" isn't accepted in Burlington County, and this is 2 fold, is because of who started it. Reason #1: Westampton isn't one of the "Prominent" departments when it comes to make change in the county. The members behind Westampton have better things to be concerned about then what everyone else in the county thinks about them. Reason #2: There are some companies out there that are simply jealous of what has come of Westampton (no I'm not pointing ANY fingers) and there are chiefs that will do anything to try to knock the 27 back a notch or 2. What amazes me around here is that it's the little companies that are actually making the progress (off the top of my own head: 17, 19, 24, 27... you get the idea) but the progress doesn't actually take on at a county level untill the "County Chiefs" (22, 23, 30, 36, 90) actually want to start playing along... then it's something for them to beat their chests about. Quints - They've been around for DECADES! Although, you never heard about them untill 36 got theirs... and now they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then someone tried saying that 4015 and 1215 shouldn't be called ladders anymore... because they're Quints.  WTF! Rescue Engines - Everyone hated 171, 191, and 342 for saying "Rescue Engine" but as soon as 25 (just an example)wanted to say it... followed by a few others... suddenly everyone wants to be one. Sowhat did we do... we made rules to suit everyone and now EVERYONE with a combi tool, a sawzall, a pumper, and NO CLUE WHAT TO DO WITH THEM, can be one. What did we gain here?? NOTHING! Well not really nothing... because some nameless local fire service politicians got ass slapped and more political clout. (oh no, I said it) Rev... Chad... Pratt... I think we should all start something new, following Camden County. Ladder 2415 is now Truck 24. Rescue Engine 1911 is now just Rescue Engine 19. Rescue Engine 1712 is now just Rescue Engine 17. "Rescue Engine 2723" is now just Squad 27. What are they donna do?? Take our radios away? Not answer us?? Last I checked, and I have the inside source, Central does not put out the fires... or rescue the people... so who cares if they answer us or not... I sure as hell don't. Rant concluded... Sorry to go all "Watchdesk.com" on everyone. |
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Post by thelurker on Oct 19, 2008 8:47:36 GMT -5
I can't believe this topic is still upsetting some people
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Post by Kramer on Oct 21, 2008 10:56:07 GMT -5
I can't believe this topic is still upsetting some people unfortunately people will continue to complain about what some call themselves out of pure jealousy. Its a shame we cant just stay with using the numbers alone because that seemed to work for numerous years w/out any major problems...perfect example of the if it isn't broke don't fix it philosophy... |
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Post by fp43301(RET) on Oct 21, 2008 17:54:36 GMT -5
ill tell u what is interesting. I live in vinton va now and here is some intersting diffences
WAGON 2 - BLS Equipt fire engine has jaws
Ladder 2- 110 foot strait stick (quint)
ENGINE 2 Engine co only
Tanker 2- 1000 gallon watter supply
Brush 2- actual brush truck
Car 2- Chiefs comand car
Rescue 2(21 22 23) ambulance
Medic 2 (21 22 23) ambulance with medic on board
SQUAD 2 heavy rescue truck
car 20 - ems command car
Bedford Co
CO 13
Wagon 13- bls equipt engine
Engine 13
Pumper 13
Brush 13
engine 13a sub sta engine
Brush 13
Manpower 13- utility or traffic control
Command 13-chief car
Fire Rescue 13- heavyrescue
SOC 4- special ops command vechical
iebeagle club command instead of cp13
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Post by voyager9 on Oct 22, 2008 8:05:16 GMT -5
I can't believe the amount of energy this topic seems to suck up.. Honestly, is it really a huge thing? The only time this comes up is when you're keying up on the radio. You'd think people would simply want the shortest title since we have to prefix every damn transmission with it.
Rescue Engine, Squad, Am-Bo-Lance... call yourself a Steamer for all that it matters. It's not like you get invited to a secret club for calling yourself a Squad.
If we have to use prefixes then there should be a list with specific criteria and guidelines for what things should be called. At the same time departments should know the capabilities of anything added to their grids no matter what its prefix is. That includes the personnel as well as the equipment.
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Post by voyager9 on Oct 22, 2008 8:11:55 GMT -5
Quints - They've been around for DECADES! Although, you never heard about them untill 36 got theirs... and now they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then someone tried saying that 4015 and 1215 shouldn't be called ladders anymore... because they're Quints. WTF! Just to stand up for my Department.. it's not like we got the apparatus and determined "Thou shall be Quints", and it was so.. D36 got the quints right around the time that the term was becoming en vogue nation-wide. The concept had been around for decades but I don't think the term was widely established until late 90's early 00's. You'd be correct in saying that it's all our fault for "thou shall number your Quint with a '4'"-trend. Though this really just highlights one of the flaws in the number-only designation we have been using. |
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
Posts: 84
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Post by Reverend on Oct 22, 2008 9:14:00 GMT -5
STEAMER IT IS!
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Post by voyager9 on Oct 22, 2008 14:09:08 GMT -5
Speaking of which. As a wedding present my in-laws got me a tool box from an antique fire truck.. basically the 3x3x3 foot box that was on the back of the thing that they put their tools in. Supposedly dates from the late 1800/early 1900's. On the front of it is stenciled "Center 1". Any idea what that could mean? Doesn't seem to match any prefix I'm aware of. |
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gotwork
Special Operations Command
Doin' It Our Way
Posts: 73
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Post by gotwork on Oct 22, 2008 14:57:48 GMT -5
Voyager- I think that the topic seems to suck up time because there are some good points out there. The committee actually included some specialty types that even included training standards and requirements which I actually support. Rescues, Squads, and even truck companies require some further training further than fire 1 (especially the new one). It is a problem also going on in other places as well. I think the document that 1900,1710, and the rest of the typing committee came up with was a superb start and instead of building upon, it was cut back because certain chief's didn't understand the whole multi purpose unit and training requirements thing.
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1900
Forum Captain
Posts: 103
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Post by 1900 on Oct 22, 2008 18:59:58 GMT -5
I can't believe the amount of energy this topic seems to suck up.. Honestly, is it really a huge thing? The only time this comes up is when you're keying up on the radio. You'd think people would simply want the shortest title since we have to prefix every damn transmission with it. Rescue Engine, Squad, Am-Bo-Lance... call yourself a Steamer for all that it matters. It's not like you get invited to a secret club for calling yourself a Squad. If we have to use prefixes then there should be a list with specific criteria and guidelines for what things should be called. At the same time departments should know the capabilities of anything added to their grids no matter what its prefix is. That includes the personnel as well as the equipment. It takes up alot of energy because we didnt come up with the idea, we were just tasked to make it right and work in the end. We put alot of work and thought into it only to have it shot down for no reason and with no explanation, only to have the document in place now put into effect. Funny thing, up until about two weeks ago the Communications Center didnt have a copy of the latest document. And they were not aware that "Rescue Engine" was an approved prefix!!! Again I could care less, but its your rule were just merely trying to follow it. I have a question in reference to the document in place... the document states under several of the prefixes "Minimum staffing should be four (4) certified firefighters"...so my question is if you are responding with 3 F/F's are you not suppose to sign on, or are you not suppose to respond at all, or do you not sign on as an Engine, or are you not an Engine if you dont have four (4) certified firefighters??? And for another thread we should define the term firefighter! |
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1900
Forum Captain
Posts: 103
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Post by 1900 on Oct 22, 2008 19:00:42 GMT -5
Hey Rev, Jason used Squadtillertenderquint...guess we'll see if we can fit Steamer in there for ya. |
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Post by papacheese on Oct 23, 2008 11:04:44 GMT -5
I have a question in reference to the document in place... the document states under several of the prefixes "Minimum staffing should be four (4) certified firefighters"...so my question is if you are responding with 3 F/F's are you not suppose to sign on, or are you not suppose to respond at all, or do you not sign on as an Engine, or are you not an Engine if you dont have four (4) certified firefighters??? And for another thread we should define the term firefighter! At the risk of kicking over a REAL anthill, the Chief is touching on a point that is a key component of the whole prefix debacle as well as the fire service in general - training. No matter what you call yourself or what equipment and services you are equipped to deliver, it doesn't matter a good God damn if the people on the apparatus aren't properly trained - or, there aren't enough of them. I can have a "heavy" rescue with every conceiveable piece of equipment possible jammed in the compartments, but all that's utterly useless without enough trained, qualified personnel to make the stuff work. That being said: 1) Who defines "adequate training"? Us? The State? 2) Does a person's experience factor into the equation at all, or can a still wet-behind-the-ears newbie fresh out of a tech class function effectively? Is that an objective or subjective decision? 3) As the Chief alluded, if the document calls for four and I only have three, do I not respond? Does a properly equipped apparatus with a slightly understaffed complement have any value whatsoever? What if the next fully equipped, full staffed unit is a long distance away and may not arrive in a timely enough fashion? Also bear in mind that daytime response rates can differ significantly from evening...is that a factor? 4) What will the "adequate training" consist of? How many classes, how many hours? More importantly, will be it offered in such a manner that a reasonable number of personnel will be able to complete it in order to keep the unit's response availablilty up? 5) Most important of all: who will enforce these procedures? The County Chiefs? Each individual jurisdiction? The State (God forbid). Remember: with each new skill or service comes commensurate levels of training, which will begin to build up to the point that a firefighter will need to spend a lot of time keeping current with each individual qualification. Rope, haz-mat, truck, extrication, RIT, water rescue, EMT, trench, confined space...the list is growing in leaps and bounds each year. Pretty soon we'll need an on-board data base to refer to as each member boards the apparatus - who has what? Is it current? Did they miss the drill where we went over the new do-hickey device we just purchased? When was the last time so-n-so was in a bubble suit? I have no doubt that there are qualified firefighters and departments in this county who can meet and/or exceed ALL of the above requirements...the real question is: do we have enough? Is it reasonable to believe we can? In a day and age when time is becoming an increasingly more precious commodity for many firefighters, can we expect that enough people will be able to devote the time and energy to not only get this training, but keep it? Before answering, factor in the latest economic situation and ask yourself if it might have a long-term impact on personnel who are part of a two-income family and may just need to get a part-time job to keep things stable in their households. If anyone is expecting some silver bullet answers to the above questions, I'm afraid I'm gonna disappoint.... Squad, Truck, Steamer, Engine, Rescue...we can obtain the hardware, but what about the REAL issue: the people arriving on them. Another thought: maybe we can do it now, but what about next week, month, year, or five years? How do we ensure that these skills and services remain constant for an extended period of time? Perhaps my viewpoint is skewed or just too narrowly focused, but as a TO, I tend to look at individuals and for the most part ignore the equipment. As many of you have pointed out, we can get our hands on a lot of toys fairly quickly..... to me, the first challenge is in getting the training - the second is in keeping the skills and knowledge current. One last comment and then I'll give everyone's eyeballs a rest: the prefix thing is kind of a red herring to me. I fully understand the need for a common typing system, but 99.99% of our responses are to our own locals, meaning we design and equip our apparatus to meet our own unique requirements. I'm certain Chief Johnson took a good, hard look at his local and developed the concept and training required to meet it's needs...which also mirrors what other chief officers do. Rescue 3119 was designed and equipped to address our specific needs, not a general one, tempting as that may have been. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's damn difficult to stand in front of the Board and attempt to justify the purchase of equipment and training for something that 1) doesn't exist in my jurisdiction, or 2) has a low level of probabilty, or 3) could be adequtely addressed through other reasonable means. This is especially true more so today than it was a couple of years back, when budget constraints weren't as tight. If the trend continues, we all going to have to find ways to do more with less.... |
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ENG27SQ
Division Supervisor
MS Paint Guru
Posts: 653
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Post by ENG27SQ on Oct 25, 2008 16:11:26 GMT -5
Hey Rev, Jason used Squadtillertenderquint...guess we'll see if we can fit Steamer in there for ya. S-Squad T-Tanker E-Engine A-Aerial M-Mass Casualty E- R-Rescue "...yea we're responding!" Someone fill in the second E and you'll be all set |
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Post by TaskForce25 on Oct 26, 2008 22:12:08 GMT -5
Hey Rev, Jason used Squadtillertenderquint...guess we'll see if we can fit Steamer in there for ya. S-Squad T-Tanker E-Engine A-Aerial M-Mass Casualty E- R-Rescue "...yea we're responding!" Someone fill in the second E and you'll be all set 2nd E.....EMS. |
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Post by voyager9 on Oct 27, 2008 10:26:28 GMT -5
Given the way our calls are going, maybe it should be the first.. |
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Post by papacheese on Oct 27, 2008 14:01:49 GMT -5
Given the way our calls are going, maybe it should be the first.. I followed Web Boss's suggestion and checked out the Philly Fire News forums for Camden County....and all I can say is: no matter where you are, the problems are always the same.... |
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WTF!
