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Post by papacheese on Aug 19, 2008 8:17:48 GMT -5
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Post by voyager9 on Aug 19, 2008 10:36:30 GMT -5
Wow... call for an Tanker TF (the ones with wings)..
I hear water supply and access were a big factor. After seeing the pics I can see why.
The gallery also has a good set of shots that show the extension into the nearby apartment building.. starting around #953 or so.
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ENG27SQ
Division Supervisor 
MS Paint Guru
Posts: 653
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Post by ENG27SQ on Aug 19, 2008 14:19:50 GMT -5
Advance that baby to a 4th Alarm right off the bat, you need water and man power and fast. Get a TANKER Task Force to the scene, start a draft at the river and start shuttling!
Oh and you see the fire over there, I want you to put water on that until there's no more fire. ;D
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Post by papacheese on Aug 19, 2008 15:25:00 GMT -5
One of our members sent me the link (thanks, Chris!) with the added request to "...make the call"
My first choice was: "Help!"
My second was: "You have GOT to be kidding me...."
My third was "Defensive doesn't even begin to describe it!"
As most of you know, I have always had a fascination with the thought processes and approaches needed for effective scene size up and operational choices...but something like this will totally short circuit the process. I can just imagine what was going through the minds of the first-due engine crew and/or initial IC. My personal opinion is that there could never be enough water, apparatus, and personnel readily available to affect a positive outcome (in this case, keeping it contained to the fire building, since it was under construction).
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Post by thelurker on Aug 19, 2008 16:16:17 GMT -5
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hp4l
Division Supervisor
Remember Your Roots
Posts: 600
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Post by hp4l on Aug 19, 2008 18:19:04 GMT -5
"Central, Chief XX00 arriving, leading off with a new set of boxers."
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ENG27SQ
Division Supervisor
MS Paint Guru
Posts: 653
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Post by ENG27SQ on Aug 20, 2008 8:23:18 GMT -5
"Central, Chief XX00 arriving, leading off with a new set of boxers." Make sure the next due brings the hotdogs and coffee! |
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Post by papacheese on Aug 20, 2008 10:25:53 GMT -5
Dean....this falls in the "strictly rumor" catagory, but I've heard that the lawsuits have already begun and that the fire company (allegedly) is one of the recipients. |
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Post by papacheese on Aug 20, 2008 10:39:23 GMT -5
Just a stream of consciousness thing here, but looking at the pictures, I can't help but think that regardless of what the fire department did or didn't do....whether they were skilled or incompetent, had enough or too little training, water, people, or apparatus, that the outcome would have been essentially the same. There's a good reason why fire is considered a "force of nature" - because it is, just like a hurricane, tornado, or earthquake. Sometimes we possess the means to stop it, while other times we don't. Looking at these pics, I can't help but think this was one of those times.
Case in point: extension into an adjacent building. As firefighters, we can scoff and say; "No way THAT should have happened!" But look at the construction...those things were basically built to burn. The simple fact that the fire started in the building under construction (another term for vertical lumber yard) made the situation ten times worse than if it had been finished.
Think about this: yes, we're all very good at what we do, but exactly how long does it take to establish a fully-functioning master stream flowing it's fully rated capacity? One minute? Two minutes? Three minutes? I'd venture a guess and say three, depending of course on length of lay, etc. Under MOST circumstances, 3 minutes really isn't that long....EXCEPT when the item that's burning has literally no protective qualities to retard fire growth and worse yet, the closest exposure is practically just as bare-assed vulnerable.
Regardless of what develops in the days and weeks ahead, I can't help but get the feeling that the cards were stacked against them even BEFORE the fire started, much less afterwards....
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Post by wellingcountry on Aug 20, 2008 12:45:59 GMT -5
I was listening to a live feed of Montco and heard everything from the beginning. The first arriving chief reported he had heavy fire and requested the first ladder to come in a certain street and to come forward with bolt cutters because he needed the gate cut. After about two minutes and the first trucks making access the chief requested his second alarm where he was advised by county that the second alarm only got him covers and his RIT team and they advised him that they would be giving him he third alarm as well. After about I'll guess was five minutes someone came on radio screaming he had fire on the third floor of the apartment complex. Around that time the ladder crews came on radio screaming for tank water as the truck was burning up due to loss of water supply which was caused by a person fleeing the scene running over the supply line. We long story short I think they were behind the eight ball to begin with it was a five alarm fire on the initial and from the sound of it the fire had already begun to auto expose before they were setup and with amount of fire and area needing protection they would have needed at least two master streams plus to protect the exposures. Also had the civilian not run over the hose I am sure they may have stood a better chance of protecting one exposure but who knows. I must commend the chief as I never heard him once scream on the radio or get excited he remained calm throughout the entire job.
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Post by papacheese on Aug 21, 2008 7:30:41 GMT -5
Good post, Dave...all of which seems to confirm my impression from thirty miles away. As the old saying goes: "Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you". I've been on a few jobs that followed a very similiar script....the fire literally blitzes you before you can get the hell out of the cab....
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Post by thelurker on Aug 21, 2008 8:31:43 GMT -5
Apparently the 5 inch and some trucks were melting in the street...the makings of a bad day right there.
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Post by wellingcountry on Aug 21, 2008 14:15:40 GMT -5
Just to add I called my father immediately after I began hearing the reports and he just so happened to be working in Conshohocken and immediately told me he could see a very large column of smoke from where he was but could not see the fire due to buildings being in the way. I listened to the call from the start till about midnight when I went to be and despite the few problems that happened over the fire operations went like clock work after the initial crews got setup and the water supply problems were fixed. The firefighters that were first on scene were able to completely evacuate both buildings with out themselves or anyone else getting injured or even worse killed. We preach life safety comes first followed by property conservation well that is exactly what they did and well some buildings were lost but those who were home at the time are able to go home to friends and family. Most of all Everyone Went Home. I have heard the news question why it took so long for the fire company to arrive and say that there were not enough resources on the street right away but man let me say it sounded like every fire in Burlington county there was truck after truck on radio minutes after dispatch so I think there were enough trucks but just not enough to handle what they were going into because it was a five alarm + right off the bat. On a funny note I did hear the IC after asking for the second/third alarm say to county why don't you start sending me ladder companies till I say Stop.
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Post by shader101 on Sept 6, 2008 13:05:10 GMT -5
urban renewal, at what price? looks like they did the best they could with the cards they were given, glad everyone went home, the monday morning qb's, lawyer's , political types ect will be pointing fingers for the next 10 years i think, hey papa cheeze howmany saftey officers u think they needed there ,lol
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Post by papacheese on Sept 7, 2008 15:18:57 GMT -5
Just one will do, Shader....and a heckva lot of scene tape to mark off the collapse zone!
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Post by voyager9 on Sept 9, 2008 9:58:47 GMT -5
Just one will do, Shader....and a heckva lot of scene tape to mark off the collapse zone! Do they make nomex scene tape? |
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JDub
Forum Assistant Chief
Firefighter
Posts: 192
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Post by JDub on Sept 9, 2008 22:53:46 GMT -5
I will lead off with a "Oh F**K" and a  |
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