why we repeat history,how can we change?

[pcs200]

we all know the problems,but how are we looking to change?
personally and operationally?[rand=6265528695755966661845712013675704638854788724711825070028637]

[papacheese]

I could wax poetic over this topic Rob, but in my opinion, here's the bottom line:

[glow=red,2,300]We need to THINK before we REACT.[/glow]

Over the years I've witnessed more than a few knee-jerk, default decision making incidents than I'd care to detail....jobs where everyone, including the IC, seemed to be sleep walking through the process without once actually LOOKING at what we were about to get ourselves into. In most cases, everything turned out OK, so as the saying goes, "No blood, no foul". Unfortunately, that only reinforces the notion that we can follow the same script for every working job...after all, it worked last time, didn't it?

The second problem is cultural: all of us, including myself, love simple, easy to do solutions. Pull a hose line, dash into the building, squirt water, break the closest window...it all seems so easy and fun, doesn't it? Years ago, it was...mostly because, as LT Berry pointed out in his Firehouse article, we never had to worry about the damn thing collapsing on us. Unfortunately, that's not the case today..the world changed and we didn't or worse yet, wouldn't. Instead, as the Charleston fiasco points out, we tend to take the easiest route..what we've always done in the past.

Another factor is one of control. Take a typical working job...we have an IC who's busy trying to get all the resources he/she needs, the Ops officer who is focused on getting the troops organized and in the door, and finally the company officer with their crew, occupied with pulling line and getting their masks on. Meanwhile, who's studying the building and conditions? I underlined the word studying because a quick glance every few minutes just isn't effective...too much can happen too quickly, especially in today's environment. This is where I shamelessly plug the use of a qualified, experienced Incident Safety Officer, the IC's alternative eyes and ears. He or she should be constantly watching the building or situation for any kind of changes, then be able to understand what they're seeing/hearing. Sames goes with monitoring the radio...why are so many Mayday calls missed? Because everyone's too occupied with immediate problems to listen carefully...a job that the ISO MUST be doing to add the extra measure of safety.

The resources, training, information, and experience are there... what's needed most is a basic change in the way we approach these things.

[pcs200]

thanks for the insite,as you said we need the basic change .
how do we change when so many are stuck in that "it's the way it's allways been done that way" mindset?

[papacheese]

Lurker and I had a discussion along these lines not too long ago on this forum...what would need to happen in order to make the changes many feel must be made.

To me (and one of the reasons for my long-winded postings), the whole things is starting to border on the absurd....why, in the face of all the evidence, don't we wake up, smell the coffee, and tell ourselves that it's a new day and a new reality.

The problem is, that's too much work....or even worse, not as much "fun".

It's that last word which gets my blood pressure spiking.

Mind you, there's nothing wrong or immoral with enjoying your work, interest, or hobby....unless, of course, you put more emphasis on the "fun" part than doing your job correctly (and coincidentially, safely). Unless you've been burnt, trapped, suffocated, buried, entangled, fallen, or knocked out, the hazards of firefighting are really nothing more than a hazy theory, not a reality. Ask any seasoned firefighter who has had the poop scared out of them (and most have) if that event changed the way they view things. If they're being honest, they would probably say "yes".... they suddenly realized that they indeed are not "bulletproof".

Short of using a soldering torch to burn everyone's hand as an illustration of what could happen, all we can do for now is educate (or in my case, harp and carp) on the issue. Lurker wondered if the vast majority really "got it"....I contend that raising awareness of this isn't an overnight thing, but will takes years, even decades before we can say every single firefighter has "got it". I happen to place a lot of faith in our younger firefighters, the future officers and chiefs ten years from now. At this time they're getting the education that we (meaning dinosaurs like me) took years to accumulate. It won't happen overnight....one of the more compelling reasons why Charleston hit home so hard is that more and more firefighters are starting to learn the cold hard truth: NOTHING is worth a firefighter's life.

When the current chiefs, officers, and senior firefighters set the right example, the younger members will follow. When the younger members reach positions of authority ten years in the future, it will become a "new tradition".

[pcs200]

I completely agree papa cheese, the one thing I try to talk and show the younger members is how to learn and not repeat,if i can help them understand that, the future will look good for them.
and maybe we can all learn something from them.

[thelurker]

Rob, start p-p-pounding this shit into their heads now.

You meet with the explorers on a weekly basis, if we start giving them this knowledge now, they will be smarter firefighters when their time comes. Dedicate 5 minutes at the end of explorers night to talk about a NIOSH report. Pick out 1 report, and 1 finding out of the report. That single report will last you 6 months probably. Then pick another one, with similar findings, and have the kids point out how the same mistakes are being made over and over.

Start putting copies of Firehouse and Fire Engineering magazines in their hands. Make them write you a "book report" on a article out of the magazine. Do one each, once a month, and you will be amazed at the knowledge level that increases. They will actually start teaching each other.

And more than anything, don't forget to teach them the good traditions and fundamentals of the fire service. Like all those "rules for probies" that I was printing out for them.

[WebBoss]

Jul 15, 2008 14:20:25 GMT -5 pcs200 said:

we all know the problems,but how are we looking to change?
personally and operationally?

1st step - Take a field trip to a burn center.

2nd step - Take a field trip to a fire museum - because that's where most out of date equipment and ideas belong.

Todays fire service is a progressive one - and it takes a progressive person to be considered an asset in the business.

[hp4l]

Something that gets done over at 311 after every drill is a LODD review. Someone is responsible for reviewing a Line of Duty Death with everyone each week. We talk about what happened and what was learned from it. Not only is it a great way to learn, it helps younger members research pertinent info that directly affects us all in the fire service. You could even mix in a near-miss here and there and really get some good discussion going.

[papacheese]

Boss, Lurker, and hp4l reinforced another of my beliefs about change: you can't be afraid to challenge the establishment (a flashback to my hippy days). Traditions are great...until they become counterproductive, or worse yet, dangerous. Don't be afraid to ask why and how....question the reasons, think about the answers, formulate YOUR own opinions based on the facts and the world around us. One of the chief differences between "then" and "now" is information...back when I started there were no NIOSH reports, LODD counts, YouTube vids of idiotic behavior, objective studies of real fires and really bad decision-making, regulations, lawsuits, and progressive thinking.

OK...enough revolutionary talk...LOL

How many of you out there staring at your computer screen think about this stuff? Is it important to you? As Boss pointed out, have you ever been to a burn center to view the results of bad decision-making?

Here's another stream of consciousness question: Can someone please define "fun" in the context of firefighting so I can understand what's missing? Personally, I'd like to replace that stupid word with one that I think is far more applicable: satisfaction.

All of you participating in this thread are the answer...you've already started the process of changing the culture...

[pcs200]

thanks for the ideas,i will use all in the comming months and let you know how it go's.
papacheese,fun is a term for "tear things up ". fun should be busting stones at the house,after a job. if you ask me.

[thelurker]

Fun is the act of doing the job correctly, when you are doing the job correctly is is smooth, easier, and therefore alot more fun.

satisfaction is the feeling you get after a job well done...just my 2 cents

Also, like papa said, teach them to question stuff that they feel is wrong, never accept anything just on someone's say-so.

Remember; Damn the man. Save the Empire.

[FirstDue312]

But with the fire service, when younger people like myself or others question something (I've sometimes noticed), it's met with resistance. Either because that person has it set that their way is right or its how they were taught. But as long as the job is done safely, effectively, and produces a positive outcome for all parties, whats the difference?
My classic example to this point is how to hold a nozzle that has a pistol grip. Ive been taught by some (ranging from some people in fire school to some people in my department) NEVER to hold it. Others say they like it. Personally, I like to be able to have my left hand on the pistol grip so if the pressure on that line jumps (and we've all been in that position before where youre about .001 seconds from getting bucked off the line) the nozzle reacts into my body and my tensed up left arm, instead of flinging up right into my face.
For those of us willing to change and follow some papacheese style revolutionary ways, how do we actually do that without being thought of as a "2/20" or as a "hot shot youngin who thinks he knows everything"? And obviously don't come off as arrogant or a know it all, but even times when you try to explain to someone older trying to teach you something that your way works for you and my way works for me, it's still seen as almost insubordinate?

[papacheese]

Good question, Jon....here's my take on it:

Like everything else in the fire service, it all has to do with attitude...a 2/20 stops asking questions because they think they "got it", don't need any improvement, and know everything they need to know. They swagger around with two fires under their belt acting as though they're grizzled vets. If they do question something, it's more to show off than to learn...like I said, it's all in the 'tude. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see through the actions and judge the true reason for a question being posed.

The "non-2/20's" ask the right questions, probe a bit deeper, practice, talk about it, consider alternatives, listen to more experienced firefighters, and approach the problem from an open-minded stance. They understand that two fires does not a veteran make, that there's always something left to learn, and are constantly striving to improve their skills.

As far as the nozzle thing goes, I personally don't like the pistol grips because they tend to push your arm back against your body, limiting motion and control. One of the basic tenants of good engine company ops is rotating the stream around the ceiling to lower the temps and keep everything from turning into a smoky mess...a difficult manuever to carry out if the nob is pressed against your side instead of out in front of you. Keeping it out in front also has the added benefit of testing the floor in front as well as allowing you to move forward (or backward) easier without twisting your hand and arm or fumbling around trying to find the grip.

In the heat of battle, you're going to do what you're most comfortable doing. Truth be told, if you can use the grip effectively, there's no reason to change...do it. As far as I'm concerned, there are no "style points" awarded for technique; the only criteria is "did the fire go out"?

I teach the "nob out in front" because in my experience, most firefighters can't control it effectively enough with a pistol grip....they look like Wally Gator when they try to rotate the stream.

[thelurker]

I know when I help teach the young guys, I like to offer up a couple different ways of doing something, then tell them which one works best for me, and why. I also take the time to tell them to do what is comfortable, natural, and effective for them. If you are comfortable with what you are doing, you will move much more quickly with less effort. In a job where over-exertion is one of the number one killers, saving energy while doing things is important.

[papacheese]

Just another suggestion regarding the original question, how do we change things?

In another life, I was a sales rep for a product that had a long sales cycle, which means it costs alot and only needed replacing every twenty years or so. That meant that in order to be successful, you had to constantly but not obnoxiously, remind the customer that they will need what I was selling someday, and that they should buy it from me. Unlike commodity stuff, my product line was techically focused and required a lot of up front work to make certain the customer eventually got what they wanted.

So, what does that have to do with changing history?

In short, it means we have to become a pain-in-the tush, semi-obnoxious, constantly reminding, always harping, never relenting salesman for culture change. Saying something once or twice is never enough..the message has to be constant, never changing, in their faces, confrontational, and most importantly, consistent. If you truly believe that the culture has to change, then you MUST practice what you preach and become an unswerving advocate 24/7/365. You don't compromise, you keep the topic alive, and tirelessly psuh for changes. In a nod to my sixties upbringing, we need to "raise the consciousness" of the average firefighter.

Not to sound pessemistic, but that won't be accomplished overnight...in fact, it will take years, even decades IF we stay on our message and never falter.

[papacheese]

One very effective way of teaching something complex like safety is to find a way to simplify it in a form and subtance that your target audience ( ie: firefighters) will easy and simple to remember.

After giving the matter some serious thinking, I came up with a new one: DDSS

[glow=red,2,300]Don't Do Stupid Stuff[/glow] (or substitute another well known "s" word)

[voyager9]

The Aggression vs Progression discussion comes up a lot on various boards and I don't think there is any consensus. The trend on this board is vastly different to some I've seen at the national level. For example: forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=99847
Now, I do agree with some things, but the general attitude from jakes that see a lot of fire is a little concerning. What impression is that discussion, or others like it, having on those that are new to the business?

On the opposite side of the coin, sometimes I think we go too far. Something is wrong, and the fix flies past the problem and beyond reality. When this happens the reaction is worse and the original point is lost.

[thelurker]

Actually, it only took me 3 posts to find something similar to my feelings on the topic, thanks VinnieB....

"A-men my Brother!!! We are skilled labor, and our trade is not exactly rocket science however many try to make it just that. Water puts most fire out, and we brake stuff to get that task done. And this is all done by putting men into the building. To many people have fallen into the "super safety" mentality.....meaning that every building we go to is in danger of falling down, blowing up, or we will die if we don't have on 6 hoods made from XYZ company, 2 pairs of Bunkers made by XYZ with ABC materials that NASA sent to the moon, God forbid we don't have a 1000000000000 CFM PPV fan with all the bells and whistles you'd expect from a fan of that caliber and the $5000000000 apparatus of the same status to carry it. And don't even think of stepping off that rig without being masked up and on air......also be sure to grab that $300000 nozzle that sparys 90 water patterns in a manner never devised before.....Not to mention all the NFPA, OSHA, PESH, NIOSH, ABC, EIEIO codes and what-have-you that will most certainly lead to your death if not followed to the "t".

I am not saying don't be safe.....I am saying don't be a puss afraid of his shadow on the the fire ground.....being "over-safe" is a hindrance.

Know your Job
Know your area and buildings
Know your limitations
The fire goes as the first line goes "its the first line stupid"
Coordinate venting with the engine
This job takes ballz and a spine...but don't be blind or stupid
The axe ALWAYS starts
Know a way out
Close the door...
Get home to your family, make sure your Brothers do too.


These lessons only scratch the surface of whats been passed down to me.....This is what I think about at work...not what gear is better, who makes the prettiest rig, what hose is lighter and has .0005% less friction loss....."

[papacheese]

An "over reaction" to an increased emphasis on safety was inevitable...the pendulum always swings too far in either direction...we're either being "too safe" or "too stupid".

We shouldn't be either...there IS a happy medium.

There will always be a time and place to be aggressive, just as there will always be situations when we should back off and concede the fight...the trick is in figuring out which is which. Making statements like "the pussification of the fire service" conveniently ignores too many things to be taken seriously. That's someone's testosterone speaking, not a valid observation. Some people just want everything to be simple, quick, and easy....unfortunately that's not reality. Reality is TGI floors, truss roofs, and synthetic materials. Applying 19th century thinking to 21st century problems is a step backwards.

[thelurker]

Yes Chief, reality is all of those things, but if you put everything into moderation, know you job, and know your buildings, then you should be able to effect a "properly aggressive" fire attack. If you want to stay outside at every job...join the EMS.