NIOSH Reports - A Wealth of Info

[3105]

www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200624.html

How many of you subscribe to the NIOSH Firefighter report list and actually read them when published? While lately it seems that most of the LODD's are cardiac related, the ones that involve fireground operations deserve our rapt attention. While NIOSH has a long way to go and needs more firefighting experts involved, a lot of what they recommend makes perfect sense if you maintain an open mind.

I've used NIOSH reports for advanced training in the department ever since I found them...while many complain that they hate to read, there's valuable insights and information to be learned if you pay attention. All my D/O candidates have to read and discuss four NIOSH reports involving apparatus accidents as apart of the basic course - if nothing else, they are sobering reminders that BRTs can be deadly if you're too overconfident or worse yet, uncaring.

The above link is to a just-published report involving an engineered I-beam floor collapse that killed a chief officer. When I read these reports I ask myself if what's describe could happen here and if so, what would I (we) do to identify and prevent the conditions from being repeated in our little burg.

The above report is particularly scary because conditions like that are everywhere in our county, especially all the McMansions and developments that have been built in the last twenty years. Giving little to no warning that it's about to collapse, I regard the engineered I-Beam as an even greater threat to our firefighters than the ever present truss roof structure....I've actually been in older, less modern homes where they've replaced the thicker, stronger, more durable 2 x stuff with these modern day miracles of wood chips and glue.

One last note: Chief Dodson noted in his ISO course that his unscientific experiments have shown this wood chip and glue OSB craps starts off-gassing the glue's water content at temperatures well below ignition point...which means the strength is being compromised LONG BEFORE flame ever breaks out...

Should these architectural nightmares be a significant factor in our initial Offensive/Transitional/Defensive size-up/risk assessment? Do we know where ALL these floor structures are?

[laddertruckgoes]

This is interesting... parts of our county is no where near some of what's highlighted here, direct from that report.

Oh boy!

NIOSH investigators concluded that, to minimize the risk of similar occurrences, fire departments should:

1: Ensure that fire fighters and incident commanders are aware that unprotected pre-engineered I-joist floor systems may fail at a faster rate than solid wood joists when exposed to direct fire impingement, and they should plan interior operations accordingly

2: Ensure that the Incident Commander (IC) maintains the role of director of fireground operations and does not become directly involved in fire-fighting operations

3: Ensure that risk vs. gain is evaluated during size-up prior to making entry in fire-involved structures

4: Ensure that team continuity and accountability is maintained

5: Ensure that a rapid intervention team (RIT) is on the scene as part of the first alarm and in position to provide immediate assistance prior to crews entering a hazardous environment

6: Use defensive fire-fighting tactics when adequate staff (including command staff), apparatus and equipment for offensive operations are not available or when offensive operations are not practical

7: Provide SCBA face pieces that are equipped with voice amplifiers for improved communications

8: Establish standard operating procedures (SOPs) regarding thermal imaging camera (TIC) use during interior operations

9: Train fire fighters on actions to take while waiting to be rescued if they become lost or trapped inside a structure

10: Use positive pressure ventilation properly

11: Ensure a back-up radio dispatch system is in place and available when needed

Where does your company fall into all this?

[thelurker]

Guess I'm behind the 8 ball, although I read these every time I see one printed out, and make comparisons to the departments with which I am involved, I never knew you could subscribe to these. Thanks for that one Chief, I am working on finding where to click to sign up.

[thelurker]

to continue with the Oh Boy factor from LTGs.....Deputy Chief...only 6 years in the service and only 149 hours of FF training...WTF...by my count, that is maybe 10 or 15 hours more than FF1 in the state of NJ!!! Thats just scary....so a deputy chief having only FF1 and maybe one other class...that couldn't happen in Burlington County could it?? Uh Oh, maybe it has, can, and still WILL happen!!! When are the "Powers that Be" going to finally admit that is can (and probably will at some point) happen to us, and that these state and federal requirements should be followed. Just because the FD police aren't kicking down your fire house doors to check your certs, does not give you the right to firmly implant your head up your butts in regards to training requirements. Kudos to those fire department who have developed and aggressive training plan, and officer preparation program, and have the backbone to uphold their training requirements and pull the gear or withhold promotions for those people who don't meet those requirements.

[1840]

thelurker said:

Guess I'm behind the 8 ball, although I read these every time I see one printed out, and make comparisons to the departments with which I am involved, I never knew you could subscribe to these. Thanks for that one Chief, I am working on finding where to click to sign up.

www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/default.html

You can subscribe to the email at this above link.

[thelurker]

Thanks, I had already found it...I went scrolling around as soon as I made the post....you know, It was never something I had even considered...glad someone else brought this up. Don't look now, but we just used this site for exactly what it was meant for...sharing information and making each other that much better.

[3105]

I'm glad someone else appreciates the value of these reports; admittedly they can be tedious to go through, but there have been quite a few that were eye-openers. As an example, there was one published last year regarding two brothers who died while entering a "Truss Attic"...a new way of adding a room inside the truss roof structure which essentially makes it into a very large Easy-bake Oven for firefighters (with void spaces surrounding three sideS of the room). When one of them opened an access hatch looking for the fire, a flashover occurred, trapping them in the room. Two days later I'm riding around my local and see one of these "attic rooms" being built into a new McMansion...right over the friggin garage (great - now there's FOUR sides to the oven).

I know this is going to sound like heresy, but there's more to KNOW nowdays then there is to DO...or more importantly, NOT DO. If nothing else, the IC can no longer afford the luxury of making assumptions... one key factor I keep getting from these reports: QUESTION EVERYTHING!

Last point: a couple of summers ago we were banged into a Dist 23 for a fairly new dwelling...our crew was pushing down the central hallway when they felt the floor start to tilt...and the TIC showed nothing but white. The entire kitchen island had burned through the engineered I beam holding it up and dropped into the basement, creating a huge hole. Amazingly (I have pics of this) the kitchen itself suffered what I would call moderate smoke and heat damage...far less than any of us would expect to find.

These floors are killers!

[3105]

Here's the link to the report I mentioned above:

www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200513.html

[shader101]

since the construction industry isn't going to go back to real lumber, maybe our push as fd's sould be better codes to include sprinklers in all those structures and make it retro & include SFD i know kinda pricey but a mac mansion or a new 3 bed rancher , what price a Life?

[radioboy]

That is an awesome site. I signed up for the email and bookmarked it. I am looking for a LODD from Kansas that happened back in Sept to be on there soon hopefully. Apparently the truck driver that inadvertantly caused the death is not going to face any charges.

[chief3102]

Lurker , As you and I discussed, some of the Officer requirements in the county are a joke. Kudos to the Dept's that have developed and implemented core training for up and coming members who want to go beyond FF. If any one cares to see one example I'm sure 3105 and his red headed step brother would be willing to share how they do it.

[3105]

chief3102 said:

Lurker , As you and I discussed, some of the Officer requirements in the county are a joke. Kudos to the Dept's that have developed and implemented core training for up and coming members who want to go beyond FF. If any one cares to see one example I'm sure 3105 and his red headed step brother would be willing to share how they do it.

I'm blushing...not for the nice compliment but because we're unfortunately not as advanced as other departments in requiring certain levels of experience and/or training prerequisites. Hopefully that's something we'll continue to develop in the future. I think what 02's referring to is our Crew Leader Training Program...a CL being something like a non-comm. Emphasis is placed on all facets of hands-on pre-officer stuff like size-up, crew management, Incident Command, health and safety issues, basic tactics and strategies. This is the area where I first tried out my as-yet-still-in-the-works Offensive/Transitional/Defensive mindset and tactical "stance" that I threw out on TWD.

[3105]

shader101 said:

since the construction industry isn't going to go back to real lumber, maybe our push as fd's sould be better codes to include sprinklers in all those structures and make it retro & include SFD i know kinda pricey but a mac mansion or a new 3 bed rancher , what price a Life?

Shader: I am in complete agreement, but unfortunately this potentially life-saving solution gets mixed up in political nonsense. Builders want nothing to do with installing or warranting sprinkler systems...plus they claim it's too costly. If memory serves me right, the fire service recently lost a big vote at the BOCA code meetings (someone correct me if I'm citing the wrong group) when they tried to push mandating home sprinkler systems...the builders were just too strong.

What we REALLY need to do is hand the nob to one of those building industry officials, point towards the flaming, cheaply built box they constructed, and say: "Go get em, son!"

[3105]

What hurts the fire service more than anything else (IMHO) is the lack of a comprehensive, nationally accepted standard for anything, much less a firefighter. As an example, we had a member join who had completed the North Carolina Firefighter 1 training, which on closer examination (and after several phone calls) turns out to be about 80 hours of classroom training only....all live burn experience is to be provided by the FF's local organization...provided they have the means, opportunity, and maybe an old shack to burn down.

One of the things we're used to (now don't laugh TOO hard) is a government that has the financial resources and means to put academies in every county, thus allowing for some degree of standardization. I can easily imagine that many of the NC firefighters might indeed be answering alarms and fighting fires without the benefit of having any really, honest-to-God live burn training. Read some of the other NIOSH reports, particularly for departments in the Midwest and far West, and very little actual documented training is required.

Kinda makes you proud to live in the Garden State, huh???

[laddertruckgoes]

Now what's an interesting turn is that there a much fewer injuries and/or LODD's in NC then in NJ. Now I know that there is less activity in NC then NJ, but the numbers still don't add up. It's not really the amount of training, as it is the quality. I do agree though that there should be more hands on early on, but they obviously do a great deal with what little they have.