when to and when not to bail out?

[lilfireguy272]

i have been seeing this on youtube alot and i have a question. When is it a good time to bail out a window and when isnt? Is there any training on this at all in burlington county?

[thelurker]

I think one of the best times to bail out is if all of your other escape routes are cut off. This will probably happen most during the initial attack if you happen to get ahead of the fire, and few to no ground ladders have been thrown yet. However being that this is Burlington county, this could happen almost anytime because we often are negligent in throwing enough ground ladders. Remember, bailing out is an emergency procedure and should be a last option. As far as training goes, I have participated in some in-house stuff, but to my knowledge the county has never provided that training. Bail out training is actually relatively dangerous, so they probably dont want that liability.

[3105]

We recently conducted a ladder bail evolution at a donor house and preach that it's a "last ditch" technique when all other means of escape have been eliminated. Teaching (and doing) it can be dangerous, so we made appropriate arrangements by having qualified members rig a safety harness.

Like anything else, "bailing" is just one of many options, one that I personnally would not opt for unless I couldn't get my tail out of there any other way....

[chief3102]

Cheese,
I was happy to see that you had scheduled that training again. I know it's been a while since the first bailout training was done. How many other "save yourself" training drills has anyone done.
Most are simple steps that if taught to firefighters will give them another tool in the box when the WTF happens.
I agree that these are last ditch save your a$$ maneuvers that hopefully we will never need, but just the same, if it helps save just one brother than it is worth it. I have some good materials for other save yourself mock ups that you can put together right in your firehouse with relative ease and a few bucks worth of materials if anyone is interested. Unfortunately like Papa Cheese my advanced age-addled brain will take a few days to remember where i put the diagrams since I retired and put the folders right where I can find them.

[WebBoss]

I think when it's time to bail, you will know it. Twice now for me... damn lucky there was a ground ladder at least close enough to reach out swing to.

Trust me, there's no other fearful feeling you will get then that moment when you realized there is no way out, shit's beyond getting bad, and you've gotta make a do it or else choice.

It is hard to train for it, but it is not hard to be prepared for it. Keep plenty of good pocket rope (not Home Depot crap) pre knotted with a carabiner and always have a good tool with you. I mean ALWAYS no matter what the BS call might be. This is for your life and your safety, no one elses first and foremost.

[3105]

As the resident Safety Nazi and mother hen, I usually shy away from dicey training exercises that could result in injuries...but feel very strongly that the ladder bail MUST and CAN be taught with appropriate safety measures in place. Firefighters MUST be given the opportunity to actually perform this manuever in order to have a fighting chance to survive in the event that things turn to shit.

The manuever caught some bad press a few years back when a captain of a California department died while performing it during a training exercise....but you have to actually read the report to understand the circumstances: it was a spur-of-the-moment thing without proper safety devices being used. He was an instructor participating in department training evolution and when the IC called for an evac, decided to use the ladder to evac instead of walking down the steps....a entirely unnecessary and ill-advised decision. He bailed, then missed the rung or beam.

Another aspect of the manuever that we taught is this: if nothing else, go out the window, grab a rung, then hook your feet on the window sill and stay there...it's better than getting your ass toasted..

[lilfireguy272]

ok and now here is the real question. How do you train for this? Any tips?

[3105]

lilfireguy272 said:

ok and now here is the real question. How do you train for this? Any tips?

We recently conducted bail-out training at an acquired structure in town. First, two members with rope qualifications looked the place over, then decided where they could find adequate anchor points for the safety harness near a division 2 bedroom window. After a little prep (tearing out some walls to locate solid beams and studs), they rigged up a harness/belay system. The window was then cleaned out entirely.

A ladder was placed in the rescue position under the window, and lashed to the building and staked at the feet to ensure it didn't move.

Training was conducted by an officer who had recently attended a ladder bail class and who prepared a short, step-by-step Power Point that was shown to each group of firefighters before they actually performed the manuever.

When everything was ready, they rigged a safety harness on the firefighter, then one instructor was positioned at the window and the other at the foot of the ladder while the firefighter when through the steps. The third person held the belay/safety line.

Each firefighter was given the opportunity to perform the manuever at least twice; once in slow motion, then at regular speed.

One of the critical factors that MUST PREVAIL for this type of training is the use of qualified individuals...in our case, we are fortunate to have rope qualified members willing to put some time into rigging up a safety system and another who had undergone training in the procedure to ensure it was taught correctly.

[glow=red,2,300]THIS IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT SOMETHING YOU ATTEMPT WITHOUT PLANNING, DISCUSSION, KNOWLEDGE, AND QUALIFIED PERSONNEL[/glow] - in others words, not something you cobble up in ten minutes.

[actanonverba]

I think the question "on whether or not to bail out" reveals an even deeper dilemma in the American fire service. While "bailing out" is a valuable skill to have when "the shit hits the fan", I think that it's imperative to learn the recognition of deteriorating conditions so one does not have to be confronted with the "bail out or not" scenario. Our mentality of "proactive thinking" may make us blindly comfortable to taking unnecessary risks.
If you have a minute, give this article a read, while it may be condescending to American firefighters, it may also be a slap with reality, and offer a cultural and psychological reason for the ever-high amount of LODDs.
cms.firehouse.com/web/online/News/From-Sweden--a-Critical-View-of-US-Firefighters/46$56147

Acta Non Verba

[thelurker]

Acta, the link isnt working for me, I am trying to just find the story w/o the link, where on FH.com should I be looking?
Thanks,
Dean

[lilfireguy272]

3105 said:

lilfireguy272 said:

ok and now here is the real question. How do you train for this? Any tips?

We recently conducted bail-out training at an acquired structure in town. First, two members with rope qualifications looked the place over, then decided where they could find adequate anchor points for the safety harness near a division 2 bedroom window. After a little prep (tearing out some walls to locate solid beams and studs), they rigged up a harness/belay system. The window was then cleaned out entirely.

A ladder was placed in the rescue position under the window, and lashed to the building and staked at the feet to ensure it didn't move.

Training was conducted by an officer who had recently attended a ladder bail class and who prepared a short, step-by-step Power Point that was shown to each group of firefighters before they actually performed the manuever.

When everything was ready, they rigged a safety harness on the firefighter, then one instructor was positioned at the window and the other at the foot of the ladder while the firefighter when through the steps. The third person held the belay/safety line.

Each firefighter was given the opportunity to perform the manuever at least twice; once in slow motion, then at regular speed.

One of the critical factors that MUST PREVAIL for this type of training is the use of qualified individuals...in our case, we are fortunate to have rope qualified members willing to put some time into rigging up a safety system and another who had undergone training in the procedure to ensure it was taught correctly.

[glow=red,2,300]THIS IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT SOMETHING YOU ATTEMPT WITHOUT PLANNING, DISCUSSION, KNOWLEDGE, AND QUALIFIED PERSONNEL[/glow] - in others words, not something you cobble up in ten minutes.

pappa cheeze now i like that alot but wat i was wondering was would anyone use rope and tie it off to a haligon bar and ram it under a window and just jump.. i just got certified and i have been hearing about bailing out and maydays..... but havnt really expernced this so thats why i asked.
thanks..

pickels

[thelurker]

lilfireguy272 said:

would anyone use rope and tie it off to a haligon bar and ram it under a window and just jump.

Brother, if it was between that and burning to death, I would take my chances on rope. I will say that I have been shown a couple of different methods with both a Gemtor Harness and without. The easiest way (without special equipment) I have found is to drive your tool into it's anchor, tie off to it, put the rope against your back and below your pack. grip both ends of the rope together in front of you, then keep tension on the rope and roll out the window. Once you are below the level of the sill, take time to right yourself and get squared away for decent. ask your officers to build a simulator, or go to the academy with your dept and do it with spotters out the division 1 windows of the class A bldg.

Papa Cheese's department and my department, practiced this from and aquired structure one day, using a window on div 1 that was about 4 feet above ground level, above soft dirt, with like 3 spotters to make it safe.

[3105]

Lurker...would you believe that was October, 2002? Time's fun when you're having a good fly....

[glow=red,2,300]OK, disclaimer follows: WHAT FOLLOWS IS FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY; TRAINING SUCH AS THIS SHOULD ONLY BE CONDUCTED IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT BY QUALIFIED PERSONNEL:[/glow]
Basically, as lurker explained, these are the steps involved ....
1. Locate a suitable anchor point


2. Drive the halligan into the wall or supporting structure


3. Wrap the rope around you as Lurker explained (and shown here)


4. Straddle the window still while maintaining constant tension on the rope...do not let it slacken...


5. Roll out the window, always maintaining tension on the rope


Although the evolution looks less dangerous than crossing 130, we deliberately picked a division 1 window to minimize needing a safety harness and belay line, which would be required if it was anything over standing height. Remember: the point of this training is to teach and practice a technique, not to entertain, thrill, or harm anyone.
Notice also that the firefighter pictured did the evolution in summer gear first, gradually working up to full blown PPE with SCBA, which is what you would expect to have on you when the effuvium strikes the revolving air movement device.

[WebBoss]

thelurker said:

lilfireguy272 said:

would anyone use rope and tie it off to a haligon bar and ram it under a window and just jump.

Brother, if it was between that and burning to death, I would take my chances on rope. I will say that I have been shown a couple of different methods with both a Gemtor Harness and without. The easiest way (without special equipment) I have found is to drive your tool into it's anchor, tie off to it, put the rope against your back and below your pack. grip both ends of the rope together in front of you, then keep tension on the rope and roll out the window. Once you are below the level of the sill, take time to right yourself and get squared away for decent. ask your officers to build a simulator, or go to the academy with your dept and do it with spotters out the division 1 windows of the class A bldg.

Papa Cheese's department and my department, practiced this from and aquired structure one day, using a window on div 1 that was about 4 feet above ground level, above soft dirt, with like 3 spotters to make it safe.

I had to go out a 3rd floor window a couple of years ago. No Gemtor harness or anything, just 30 feet of pocket webbing, a carabiner, and a halligan bar. Being the heat of the moment, I punched a hole through a drywall wall and wrapped the webbing around the 2x4 stud clipping it onto itself, threw the other end out of a window and out I went. Once I got on the window ledge, I gave the running end of the webbing 3 good wraps in my Scott waist belt and slid down the outside wall feet first. My partner followed my lead and moved so quickly to get out that he hit the ground just as I was getting out of his way.

This whole bailout was done in around a minute.

Now, the question was asked when do you bail out? This house was 2 stories from the front, 3 from the back. So you actually enter on the 2nd floor on the street side. We were searching for a victim in a bedroom when the heat went from just Hot to Holy Shit in less then a minute. Apparently a room flashed below us, which sent a "Fireball" of sorts up the stairwell and down the hallway to the end room where we were. My partner had the can and did what he could to hold the fire back to get the door closed. Once getting the door closed, we couldn't see much of anything. When I found and removed the window, there was so much smoke that I had to feel around to see if a ladder was there, which there wasn't. The room we were was so hot that it hurt to breath through the mask or let your skin touch the inside of the gear. The radio wasn't working, so we were out of options.

By the time we got out and regrouped, we went back to the back of the house and there was already heavy fire coming from the window we came from. After all was done, we were inside overhauling and the room we were confined to was completely burned to the point that only the bottom third of the door was still intact. I found my webbing and carabiner, but the webbing melted around the carabiner and the carabiner itself was deformed to the heat (and probably my fat ass) so it ended up just getting left in place.

BTW - 30 feet of webbing wasn't enough to tie off and make it all the way to the gound, but it was the difference between a sore ankle, and a broken back.

Lessons Learned:

[glow=red,2,300]Always throw ladders everytime!!! (that would've saved us big time)[/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]Always keep good quality rope or webbing with you (not Home Depot junk rope either)[/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]Always trust your instincts[/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]Always be alert to your surroundings and don't panic![/glow]

[3105]

Good post Boss.....

[lilfireguy272]

Thank you guys sooooo much. that means alot when u got guys on here that will help you understand what something is. Now the other question witch there will be a threat about this is ppv. in a house fire you cant see shit and your asking opperations for them to vent. they set up a ppv but u dont kno where the fire is. In a cheifs eyes would you cut the roof open or wat? i saw a video on firehouse.com and it was scarry. makes you think holly hell wat if that was me in that house.

[WebBoss]

3105 said:

Good post Boss.....

Every once in a while I'll pull something out of my hind end to share with the class... ha ha ha

[youknownothing]

Another opportunity to receive this training can be done at one of the fire service trade shows. I took the training as a part of Chief Salka and Chief Laskey's "Saving Our Own" program at FDIC while still employed by the county. If your department affords people the opportunity to attend this show it could be a good opportunity to get the training.

I would assume that Firehouse Expo would have some sort of similar training too. While I know it can be expensive to attend these shows, if your department will afford you the funding to attend it is definitely worth while to take this class, or any of the numerous hands on or classroom sessions.

If this is not an option and your department wants the training, as 3105 has stated, if you plan on doing it on your own MAKE SURE you follow every possible safety precaution. Make sure you have the proper anchor points and QUALIFIED training personnel to deliver classroom and then hands on training