Make the Call #41

[papacheese]

Time to exercise the old coconuts....now for something completely different...



Based on what you see above, Make the Call: Offensive, Transitional, Defensive...and why. List concerns and solutions.

[ENG27SQ]

I'll bite for a change....

Coming from a rookie here...Defensive

Advise central of your scene, have road shutdown. It looks as the driver (and passenger if one was present) are out so no patients entrapped).

Secure battery if possible.

1st due engine stretches a protection line (charged) and stands-by.

Advise county health to come out being it looks like there is fluids from the truck itself (Wouldn't go calling Hammer 15 right off the bat).

I'd evac. the home behind the incident IF there was a pertinent leak from the tank on the truck but if not, still have someone advise them that if the situation arises, they might need to evacuate for pre-cautions.

Dike-up what you can til County Health arrives and puts it's opinion out.

[FirstDue312]

Haz Mat Placard 1075 - Liquified Petroleum Gas

Since LPG is heavier than air, it will sink to the ground and essentially boil away if it is leaking. But when this happens the flammable vapors will be left lingering.

That being said, this is certainly a defensive type operation for the Fire Department. If trees have been affected and damaged power lines, get PSE&G on the line right away and terminate power to these lines. Make sure all occupants are out of the vehicle and set up a safety zone. LPG expands at 270:1 so set up a blast zone. Get the HazMat and EPA team on the way and begin evacuations of nearby houses. Have ground monitors set up in order to cool the tank in case it does light off. And basically let the HazMat team do their work.

[daveconstantine]

OK, I will bite...........the steering wheel all the way to Cape May. Let see, First redirect this company further back than what they are at time, the hill will provide the nice angle too close to the engine company. Oh yeah it looks like someone did their homework right from the book, good use of available technology. I am not taking chances. I am calling HAMMER 15 and everyone else to cover my proverbial boootox until the EXPERTS tell me that there is nothing to worry about. It does appear that the fluids are from the vehicle itself and not the tank. They also tell me several other things like the fluids if they do begin running will be coming right at me and everyone on the engine, we need to step off. We need to move the line placed on the ground due to the close prox of the fluids.

It looks like a winter day with temp below freezing due to no melt off from the snow on the roadside. Diking and damming will require move work; harder to move the earth in your favor.

Road closures are key and need to be coordinated with the Police. they will begin the questions about opening the roadway soon, so plan for that.

Extra companies in case and get someone on the other side. FOAM, FOAM and by the way some more FOAM.

If it does decide to take the southern path which way are the ends and seems going?

Calling the company for their assistance; they know more about their vehicle than I do.

[ENG27SQ]

Man...compared to my post you two blew mine out of the water haha...oh well it's how we learn

[FirstDue312]

Hey I'm a rook too, I had to look up the expansion ratio of LPG to know that its 270:1. Use our resources and just throw in your two cents. Its how we all learn

[papacheese]

Rookie or veteran, some really good observations and comments being made....to the rest of you "out there" who hold back due to inexperience, try your hand - no one here is going to break your chops.

Jon performed some research, which is also readily available (or should be) in every apparatus: the Emergency Response Guide (the orange book).

Without an ERG, the company name, as well as the tank size and shape, tell me it's propane. This kind of vehicle can be seen every day around Burlco County, so this is not outside the realm of possibilty. 3100 mentioned fluid, which is particularly accurate if it's cold enough outside. The semi-spherical ends of the tank indicate the contents are under pressure...propane is shipped as a liquid but will rapidly vaporize IF it's warm enough (even freezing is warm enough for some vapor to be generated).

Bottom line: this is a potential bomb....sources of ignition should be immediately eliminated and a perimeter established. Heavy caliber lines should be stretched/deployed and aimed at the tank shell in the event that a fire starts. If you have time (which hopefully you do), establish an abundant water supply...if you don't have hydrants, request a Tender Strike Team and set something up to will provide a LOT of water should the need arise. Although there are no immediate exposures, plan on fire spread if there's an initial boom....

[voyager9]

The key thing is doing a 360. There is probably a Police Cruiser parked right behind the accident

[thelurker]

Take a recall...no need for FD services per the PD... ;D LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Reverend]

Some good things on this post, but also some items that are incorrect. I believe that based on the photo their are only fluids from the truck leaking. The MC331 vessel is an extremely durable vessel, so unless it landed on something that peirced it or piping was sheared off it is mostlikely just scratched up.

As usual perform a 360
Establish hot zone
Call for assistance- haz mat and propane company rep
Gather info/confirm product and damage to truck/container
Control all ignition sources
Evacuate area- especially low lying areas because vapor will settle low
AIR MONITORING- Four gas meter will do the job here
Set up high caliber water lines- 21/2, monitors, deck pipes
Get a water supply
Set up for vapor suppression and for cooloing the tank

Make provisions for transferring product (Hazmat & Propane rep)
LPG companys have the equipment to do this. Also for a point of memory bank reference. Haz Mat 13 can transfer LPG, we have all of the necessary pumps and hoses to transfer most types of products. Corrosives, flammable, LPG we got it thanks to a $100,000 DOT grant. We can adapt to almost anything, over the road or by rail.

[Reverend]

Several things have me concerned with some of the responses. I will try to add. Look at it thru a hazmat guys eyes.

Daming and diking- Unless it is extremely cold outside (Ice Road Truckers Cold) thier will pretty much be no need to do this for a propane leak. Put oil dry on the antifreeze and oil but as far as the LPG goes. No need. LPG is only a liquid because it is pressurized, which means if it is leaking out of that fancy truck it is a gas at virtulally any temperature we would face it. Sense it is a gas we need only worry about vapor because their will be little to no liquid to control.

Foam- NO NEED, Foam will not assist you in this unless it was on fire and you wanted to use foam for exposure protection. As we said earlier this fire will be a pressurized gas fire. In order for foam to work you must be able to control the area in order to establish a blanket or some resemblance of one. This fire will be pressurized, thus no foam blanket will be able to be established. What to do... Vapor suppression or reduction. If it is hot out we can apply streams to the top of the container and help cool it and reduce some of the vapors. If it is on fire apply tons of water to the vapor space of the tank with unmanned monitors. We need to reduce the chance of a BLEVE, The Big One.

ERG use- Watch yourself, invest in some better more difined research material. The ERG book while ok, dosnt provide the type info that allows you to make quality offensive descions .It basically says stay away evauate everyone. You can not say were not the haz mat go defensive every time. You will be forced to act sometimes given specific situations so you need good reference material on site. You cant always wait 45 minutes for the hazmat.

[shader101]

call the experts, county,.propane company ect ,evac area houseing and us to a nice safe distance keep the roads shut down, fuck the oil dry, we can always clean up the mess after the main hazards been removed

[firstin312]

With my binoculars ready I check the scene from a good distance. Looks as if the driver is out, is he still nearby?, talk to him ask what he feels the status on the Liquid propane is at that time and check to see if his company has been notified. Have additional resources come in the other way to evacuate the homes nearby. Call Hazmat and any other county or state agencies that may be needed or notified. Safety first, we may not be able to see that small leak on the opposite side of the truck and where or what it is leaking onto. Have things at the ready for that just in case, but don't jump the gun and set up to close or even to far away, unless you are ready with all the answers for this job...

[capt311]

Transitional/Defensive
Upgrade to a hazmat incident, call in the hazmat boys, secure the area, the victim is out of the truck (a good thing) looking at the placard 1075 is LPG which we know is flammable and heavior than air, we have a residential house approx. 75yds away start evacuating, stretch a 2 1/2 & blitz, additional hazards: power lines running on the right hand side of the road and wind condition & it is on a hill. Full PPE & guard your grill.

[daveconstantine]

Great information Rev, for those of us that do not have the training and hands on experience you have from the Hill. You and I had the chance a couple of weeks ago to talk about some of the web sites available for us to use. Could you place them on here so we can see the difference in between the ERG and the information provided in the sites?

[fp43301(RET)]

Im going to jump in here from anemergency management standpoint. The FD needs to first relize that this is a Hazmat incident and they need to be careful. so i would advise HAZMAT for HAMMER 15, the Propane Co rep and your Emergency management as there is a house in the background so they need evacuation and sheltering at. you do not know how many houses are near the scene but anything within the orange book for evacuation i would advise. Better safe then sorry. an engine staged a good distance away .Fire Police Shut the Road and any ajacent roads down. The fluid may be gasoline so if that lights off , you heard of a BLEVE.... . So at this point Notification of HAZMAT , propane co , electric and Gas. Emergency management should have been made and once that is all secured Mop up.


Dean D Davison
OEM
FPLT

[Reverend]

FP43301- Good points, most of which were covered in other posts. Kinda assumed OEM would be involved in this incident. FF's need to remember that to make evacutations you only need to consider the safety of those that are being evacuated. You dont need permission from the OEM,PD,Chief, or have to have a place to put them or feed them. Remove those who are in harms way and than let you OEM plan go to work. FF's are first responders & OEM are next to last responders. Be familiar with the OEM plan and do your best to make all effected safe and comfortable.

SIDEBAR- the reference to the fluid being gasoline, yes it is possible especially in older delivery trucks. However if you look at most modern Bobtail 331 delivery trucks you will notice thier are no saddle tanks. Because they dont have them and dont run on diesel/gas. These trucks are fueled with LPG right out of the cargo tank. Pretty smart idea.

[thelurker]

Little bit of duct tape and some bondo, and she'll be delivering again in 35-45 minutes.