Make The Call #32

[3105]

Now for something a little.......different.

Granted, not many County locals have a building of this type or construction, but there are more than a few target hazards that could end up looking like this. An incident of this type goes way beyond the O-T-D method into what I refer to as the "OS" ("Oh Shit!") mode....the factors, conditions, and situation now escalate well past the normal "three engines, a truck, and a rescue"

How many engines, trucks, and rescue will you need? What about water flow, assuming this isn't sprinklered (Duh!). What gallonage are you going to need to overpower this monster and more importantly, do you have it readily available? Time plays a considerable role as well....







What kind of cosntruction type? What role will that play in your decision making? Project ahead five, ten, twenty and sixty minutes...what do you hope to see different (other than a pile of smoking bricks?)

[WebBoss]

As the incident commander, 4 trucks (one for each corner for master streams) and 8 Engines or so... and a new pair of shorts.

[JDub]

I agree 4 trucks one per side. Also I agree 8 engines, 2 per side. I would like to almost see 8 rescues/RIT because if crews go in your going to need multiple RITS do to the multiple floors and sides. But honestly establish water supplies and let the master streams do there work.

[pcs200]

big water big fire. at least 4 ladder or towers, 6 engs,4 hydrants,or draft points, dump every thing you got ?

[hp4l]

Definitly want to consider a canteen or ladies auxiliary in your resources for this one. This is going to be a long day. And for sh*ts and giggles, have a board up company come out just to see their reaction when you tell them how many windows.

[augdog]

keep the water flowing, canteen and some lawn chairs are a good idea too.

[tootall]

This is one of the fires I am actually going to do the math. LXW/3 X number of floors involved. I would also add additional 15% -25% of water to that to take into account the contents that are probably burning inside.

Hit the plugs to maintain that flow and set up the masterstreams.

This is a totally defensive operation. Set up your collapse zones.

[thelurker]

As a person that lives in a local that has one of those, I feel that there is a pretty good chance we won't be able to achieve the gallonage to overcome this type of building, but merely contain it, and wait/ prepare for collapse. If this is in a town that is hydranted and close to a body of water, i recommend getting pipelines from that body of water to the fire scene in addition to utilizing water from fully dressed hydrants. Set up your collapse zones, place your elevated master streams at the corners of the building if possible (best coverage and strongest parts of the building) and lob away. Most of these old heavy timber factories have heavy timber floors that will kill your K-12s and chainsaws. Just try to drown it and keep everyone out of the way. Luckily, if you burn one of these down, there will be a new complex of light weight constructed condos there before the smell of smoke leaves the neighborhood.

[3105]

Tootall and Lurker were angling towards the point I was trying to make in my initial description: the volume of water needed to assure a "positive outcome". Depending on which formula you use, the answer is: "A lot more than many jurisdictions can supply". The other problem is with the formulas themselves; most of the contemporary models we were taught have the fatal flaw of NOT including the contents....just the structure. Using Craigs's formula and dimensions of 50 x 100 four stories of ten foot height, we'll need something like 7,000 gallons per minute to tame this puppy.

Doesn't sound like a lot, but remember that the anticipated flow from the surrounding hydrants will drop considerably with every one that's turned on to the point that you'll get nothing out. Look at that number again...once the local hydrants are committed, that's probably four to five LDH Task Forces.

Another factor here is the construction...just my opinion based on nothing more than observation, but I think this is either a Type I Fire Resistive or Type II Non-Combustible...meaning concrete floors, which tells me what I'm seeing is is being produced mostly by contents.

All of us work to some degree or another by gut instinct, reacting to what we see/hear/smell to form an initial impression. My personal one when I saw these pictures was: "Wow...it's coming down...ain't no way on God's green earth we could possibly muster enough water fast enough to prevent this from becoming (as Lurker alluded) cheap-ass lightweight condos."

[thelurker]

3105 said:

Another factor here is the construction...just my opinion based on nothing more than observation, but I think this is either a Type I Fire Resistive or Type II Non-Combustible...meaning concrete floors, which tells me what I'm seeing is is being produced mostly by contents.

I was thinking true 6X12 or 12x12 wooden floors, probably well permeated by flammable fluids such as lubricating oil and kerosene and who knows what else from many many years of production during the late 1800's and early to mid 1900s. This property may have been abandoned except for the 1st floor and had just various loads of crap both stored and discarded on the other floors another serious concern is old and abandoned machinery adding to the dead load on these floors. It's sad to watch these historical buildings go but sometimes there is no other choice.

[1900]

Master Stream operations ONLY....

And most important Collapse Zones!

Not sure where you would get the water needed for the fire flow of building like this...fire boats??? lol

[3105]

Lurker's comment is an important one (at least it is to me). He is assuming that the place has wooden floors, meaning it's Type III Ordinary Construction or even Type IV Heavy Timber/Mill. In either case, that's a sure receipe for a structural collapse when the floors burn away, especially when compared to a Type I or Type II.

The reason his comment is important is that all of us look at something and start making assumptions....and whether the place is Type I, II, or III is not as important as ALWAYS ASSUMING IT'S THE WORSE POSSIBLE ONE INSTEAD OF THE BEST POSSIBLE ONE. That means he (and we) will more than likely NOT be surprised later on...

Good point Dean...(although I still think it's Type II...LOL)

[18102]

4 trucks,8 engines,4 rit but if you look at the builbing windows are broken out not by fire but stones,bottles or what ever can be tossed at them.do you want to go in or not, use the trucks masters to knock the it down,you can also put a 2 1/2 in the building in div b added help...

[opsoverkill]

Lot of black smoke and automotive repair facility maybe they stored old tires in the upper floors opening up a whole host of issues. I like the defensive mode surround and drown.

[cbkovats1]

[glow=red,2,300]Original question "How many engines, trucks, and rescue will you need? What about water flow, assuming this isn't sprinklered (Duh!). What gallonage are you going to need to overpower this monster and more importantly, do you have it readily available? Time plays a considerable role as well...."[/glow]

My answer: MORE!

4 trucks, at least one per side (2 per side would really be great)

a minimum of 8 engines, bc the relays will become long

3 buses, rehab and ems duties

4 bosses, hope to get one suckered into PIO