Make the Call #30

[WebBoss]

This one is for all you Reading Smoke junkies!

What would you do and why?





Photo's by Chuck Killian, CentralPAFire.com

[JDub]

I am going to take a shot at this and if am wrong or you have some advice please feel free to tell me.

It's off to the races up in that attic or second floor. It's ventilating out the two side widows. That is going to flash soon. I would say get 2 crews in there with 1 3/4 and hooks and get that fire. have a truck company get to the roof and ventilate. However have the master streams ready if the hose teams can't make it up there.

[riverlinetk]

First, you have to see that the time lapse from the first picture to the second picture is probably one minute or less, judging by how far the occupants have made it. In that time the fire has clearly advanced quite a bit. On arrival, verify that all occupants are out. You must locate where this fire is before you really make an entry. Looking at this from the outside it looks like it could be ranging anywhere from a basement fire to a fire on the first floor (ceiling maybe?). If you go running into this with tunnel vision to the second floor you could be in a lot of trouble. Might have a room off in the basement that went straight up.

Do not start horizonal ventillation until you have this figured out. Get several crews inside with two lines, one preferably larger than an 1 3/4. Get the walls opened up as this looks to be in the walls and voids already. (esp b/c it looks like its fast moving and the occupants are just leaving the home now). Get a crew to the roof and get a good vent hole cut, relieving all the heat/smoke from the top *would greatly help your ops at this fire*. Get at least two ground ladders up, preferably at least one on all sides for egress from 2nd floor and the roof. Secure utilities quickly as this could be electical in nature when looking at the smoke. Devote all your resources to the interior attack and have a rit crew ready to go. If you end up losing your handle you'll have enough time to turn to master stream ops.

I'm sure there's more but figured this was a good start.

[WebBoss]

Ok... I was just emailed 2 additional photos of this job for you guys...
[glow=red,2,300]
SIDE C[/glow]



[glow=red,2,300]SIDE D[/glow]



Now what do you think?

[pcs200]

first look at the seson, the house is clsed up,there probably is a fire in the fire place. its a older couples house. the smoke shows the start ofa good working job. First take a crew through div 1 bravo, to div 2, with atic and 1 3/4 for protection. have a truck co to bravo div 2 to open up that window.coordenation is key here. you'ii have to hook in div 2 to to check fo extention.

[thelurker]

I am going to go with "room off on division 2 aggressive roof ventilation coordinated with an aggressive interior attack. It is getting ready to self vent that B-side window, and already broke through the plaster to get the the roof decking on side C. I feel that where the break through is is far enough to rule out a chimney fire, but the overhaul will get that wall pulled anyway. Open up that roof, using roof ladders on the C-side if possible. Get in there with an 1-3/4 and a backup line and get it. Gonna need a lot of overhaul to get it completely, but that's my take on it.

[riverlinetk]

I agree with everything that's been said. However, still when you look at it from these pictures you can't miss the smoke that is lower on div. 1. Still can't rule out a fire in the walls that started on div. 1 or even drop down into. Definitely don't want to get caught with fire below you and no line in place. Locate it as you go, get it all opened up and vented and get it. I assume they are already getting water on it in the pics of Div C and D, looks like water coming down the exterior siding, esp on div. c.

[3105]

GREAT pics Boss....they're going to be stolen to add to my Reading Smoke class!

OK...here's my read: [glow=red,2,300]Transitional[/glow]

Fire is definitely located in attic division...I am unable to locate any appreciable smoke issuing lower than the eaves. Judging from the volume, velocity, density and color of the smoke in the second picture, the attic is comprised of several finished and furnished rooms; the one on the B side is nearing flashover; the one on the D side is heading in that direction.

My first thought/question before committing to an interior attack: where are the stairs? My gut tells me in the center, but maintaining a healthy sense of skepticism, I want that confirmed first.

To me, that's an important piece of intel because depending on their location, the crews may or may not be able to hit the seat of the fire with enough gallonage to actually turn things around. No doubt there are separate rooms up there which could limit the effectiveness of a smoothbore's reach and punch.

Again, the smoke color in the second picture is indicating that untreated wood (ie: the rafters and joists) are starting to off-gas from high heat...and that's affecting their integrity. If I trust my initial smoke read that this attic has finished space, that means the fire is breaking out of the box and advancing into knee walls and voids.

Here's my action plan:

1) Calling Transitional tells my crews to stretch an attack and back up line but not to enter unless ordered. This is the kind of fire that demands a measured yet flexible approach. As far as hose selection is concerned, this is a great place for a 2 inch line, although I'd be reasonably comfortable with a 1 3/4 attack with a 2 1/2 back up

2) Get the truckies to pop all windows/vents on the attic division BEFORE committing anyone in the door.

3) Give the fire a minute or two to react, then tell the attack crew to cautiously enter, locate the stairs, then report conditions. If the floor is solid and the stairs tenable, I'd tell them to direct the stream up the stairway to hopefully retard the flashover potential in Division D, then advance cautiously and try to hit it from the top of the stairs

Now, here's my reasoning:

The fire is definitely in "tweener" stage and could literally change at any moment. The key is not to be anywhere inherently dangerous until that event takes place.

We need to help the damn thing along...and what happens as a result of our help will determine if we transition to Offensive or Defensive....

Experience tells me that in 9 out of 10 fires like this, the entire attic division and roof structure is eventually lost despite all efforts...not because of poor decision making or technique, but because of construction features. The triangular shaped space means knee walls which allow unimpeded access to the entire space....BEFORE we even get there.

[riverlinetk]

I see!!! maybe my vision is that bad, looked to me as though there was smoke coming from around the door frame all the way almost to the base of the door. I assume this size up would all be 10X easier in real life on location! Thanks for the correction.

[3105]

I don't like calling it a "correction" because reading smoke is more of an art than a science... it all depends on what YOU see at the moment YOU are looking...and quite truthfully, three people looking at the same fire can see three different things.

Another factor that cannot be underemphasized is the fire's dynamics...meaning how quickly the situation and/or smoke is changing. Due to the medium we're using, that's unfortunately not available but sometimes, like in this series, we can get a reasonable idea. If the top two pics were taken a minute apart, that would tell me we're very quickly running out of time to make any appreciable difference.

What's curious to me is the complete lack of any smoke in the dormer windows...which means either they're incredibly weather tight or isolated from the main body of the fire.

[WebBoss]

If I had to take an educated guess, I think the fire might have started in some kind of an exhaust fan or something on the roof.

The 2nd and 3rd pics were within 5 mins of the first 2, taken by a member of the first arriving engine company. I guess the timeline might have helped a little bit when I posted the pictures.

[1900]

Good one.

You def got some high heat conditions up there im sure.

My first guess would be a bedroom well on its way on Div 2...Ive had a couple jobs that looked pretty close to this and thats what it was...

But electrical could be a good possibility. I think the fire is on Div 2, it could be behind the knee walls and thats whats giving the lower smoke...get the meter pulled as soon as possible...

Get two 1 3/4 up there...you gotta get a hole in the roof as soon as you can....you may want to even consider cutting the hole on the A side, since the C side has fire coming out of it, while yes it looks like a vent or something, the rafters may be compromised...your gonna have alot of opening up to do on div 2...ceiling and knee walls....

But I to would have the 2 1/2 ready she def looks like shes up and running.

It'd be alot easier if it would just flash already...Give it a second im sure it will...

[3105]

1900 said:

It'd be alot easier if it would just flash already...Give it a second im sure it will...

Great point, Chief...things usually get a lot less dicier after the Big Boom occurs. In an earlier post I advocated the "Everybody Stop and Count To One Hundred" approach in some situations just to lessen the NTS/LHIC syndrome and let the fire have it's way....momentarily. I'm not suggesting that we all stand around and gape at the fire, but instead use that time to get all our goodies ready...ladders, back up lines, water supply, crews, etc organized and ready to smack the dog snot out of it.

Just another thought/opinion: as 3102 will attest, I tend to read every NIOSH report issued and sense that other than a few post-fire structural collapses, most traumatic fireground LODD's occur within the first twenty minutes of a working job when events are still unraveling. I would submit that in this day and age of homes filled with solid gasoline trinkets, flashover is not only more common, but almost expected in most cases....it's damn near predictable in most cases. Understanding that the temps which are producing that thick, turbulent, ugly-ass black smoke have already destroyed whatever was in the room, we need to accept the simple fact that:

1) we didn't start the fire
2) we can only do so much based on what we're presented with.

To me, that's not giving up, it's being realistic.

[augdog]

i agree with everyones post so im not gonna comment to hard, just that the police cant put this one out.