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Post by WebBoss on Dec 13, 2007 8:23:42 GMT -5
 I couldn't pass up the oppertunity to be like Papa-Cheese for once in my life. D-T-O? What factors do YOU think come into play with an incident such as this? Safety considerations?? |
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JDub
Forum Assistant Chief
Firefighter
Posts: 192
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Post by JDub on Dec 13, 2007 10:39:08 GMT -5
Well first off safety wise, look at the smoke color and that there are multiple windows with that thick smoke coming out of them. Second, look at the structure, looks like construction or remodeling is being done along with the appliance on the front lawn. Third, snow on the roof, i wouldn't send someone up there unless he or she is on a tower or a straight stick. Fourth, it looks somewhat rural, so check for a water supply.
My plan of attack is a 2 1/2 at the front door, however, it will be an exterior attack through the front door. Vent the windows with a hose line at each window on the A side to try and cool the fire down. If you have a ladder truck place it into service and vent the structure of the respective ladder. Also possibly put the ladder pipe into service.
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Post by 3105 on Dec 13, 2007 11:19:34 GMT -5
GREAT picture.....where do you guys find these gems?
Josh made some great observations and reactions...here's the PC Perspective"
1) Notice that the snow on the roof hasn't melted...yet. Hmmmm...this could be a very accurate indication that the fire has not yet entered the void area, which (to me) is further confirmed by the lack of smoke issuing anywhere along the roof line or edges. This appears to be contained to the original "compartment" and has auto-vented itself.
2) Following the above logic, we should be asking ourselves: "OK, where will it be FIVE MINUTES fro now, 'cause that's where we need to marshal our resources. Left untreated, that bright orange stuff I keep telling everyone to ignore will autoexpose into the attic void via the eaves...that's a cast-iron certainty.....so.....
3) I'm calling Offensive...Attack, Back-Up, and truckies. Slap the dog snot out of it with a heavy caliber line to overcome the high BTU value, then quickly open the ceiling and check for extension into the void area.
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Post by thelurker on Dec 13, 2007 12:35:20 GMT -5
Go in the back door and push it right out the front where it is already showing. Break those front windows to continue drawing the fire towards the already burning front of the house. You need high gpm to cool that much fire, so a 15/16 smoothbore on an 1-3/4 backed up by a automatic on a 1-3/4 should do the trick. The fire in the picture looks impressive, but should be able to be knocked quickly with a heavy application of water. I disagree with hitting it from the front, because you are then pushing the fire toward the unburned side of the structure.
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Post by WebBoss on Dec 13, 2007 12:39:51 GMT -5
Wow - a little debate now. 2 very good points of view and methods of getting the job done.
What is the reasonings behind each of yours methods of attack??
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Post by thelurker on Dec 13, 2007 12:54:31 GMT -5
Wow - a little debate now. 2 very good points of view and methods of getting the job done. What is the reasonings behind each of yours methods of attack?? My reasoning is quite simple, the three aspects of what we do come into play here... 1. Life Safety- Looks like it is probably clear, but we need to get a search done if we can, just to make sure. 2. Incident Stabilization- Well, it is a SFD, no apparent exposures, so as long as we keep this fire in this structure, the incident has stabilized. 3. Property Conservation- We can still conserve the majority of this property if we get on this quickly. Also, by attacking from the unburned side, assuming all goes correctly, you will stop the advance of fire within the structure. Now even if you put the principles of risk management into this..you know, Risk A Lot to Save a Lot and so on, you should still be aggressively attacking this fire. It is not well advanced, it is already free burning, and already ventilated. Now get in there and smack the crap out of it. |
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tootall
Special Operations Command 
BurlCoFire EMS Moderator
Posts: 98
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Post by tootall on Dec 13, 2007 12:59:30 GMT -5
Sorry Pop Im going with the Lurker on this one...the fire isnt showing in any of the windows which makes me beleive its right where its at....
Notice the house has no siding its only the Tyvek insulating shit...also there is an appliance sitting on the front lawn...either these people are from West Virginia or the house could be underconstruction.
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Post by 3105 on Dec 13, 2007 14:14:39 GMT -5
Sorry Pop Im going with the Lurker on this one...the fire isnt showing in any of the windows which makes me believe its right where its at.... Notice the house has no siding its only the Tyvek insulating shit...also there is an appliance sitting on the front lawn...either these people are from West Virginia or the house could be underconstruction. Web Boss...you don't waste any time, do ya? OK....I'll up the ante: Ahhh....what does an EMS Branch Director know, anyway?Just kidding, tootall <ouch- hey, stap slapping my head!>. If you notice, I failed to provide the requisite detail in my assessment, other than to call Offensive...which means I agree with my esteemed and learned colleague Lurker....his point about approaching from the unburnt side is posilutely absatively correct in every regard... Now, regarding the weapon(s) of choice: 1 3/4 smoothbore versus 2 1/2 inch smoothbore, the first rated at 185 GPM, the second at 250 GPM......which is better in this particular situation? I advocated the Big Gun mostly because of the smoke issuing from the window on the right....while not TOO ugly yet, it does show signs of potential for a future flashover....which I certainly DO NOT want happening while me and my trusty crew are busily entering and snuffing out the main body of the fire. Judging from the distance between the fire room and that window, I'd say there's a better than average chance that a wall is separating the two areas...thus creating another of those dreaded "adjacent boxes" which, left untended, can produce serious and unexpected consequences while we're making our attack. To counter this potential, I chose the 2 1/2 for two reasons: 1) greater BTU killing power means quicker, more effective knockdown. 2) ability to rapidly cool the heat build up in that adjacent box. Other than this minor detail, I have absolutely no problem with anyone's assessment.....LOL |
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Post by thelurker on Dec 13, 2007 14:30:09 GMT -5
1-3/4 X2 if you noticed chief...and the big part of that is mobility vs. staffing...we (the collective we) don't have the staffing on scene quickly enough to make an aggressive interior attack quickly with a 2.5. I was talking about getting in there right now and kicking ass and taking names. If you are truly concerned with the GPM available from the 1.75 lines, we can step up to a 1-1/8 inch nozzle, or switch to the Vindicator nozzle, pumping out approx 235 gpm at I believe 50 psi at the nozzle. If this option sparks your interest, I will bring the disk from Vindicator over to you between now and the 21st and we can run the numbers over java and Law Enforcement Energy Rings.
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Post by 3105 on Dec 13, 2007 14:46:36 GMT -5
Law Enforcement Energy Rings? ROFLMAO Deal.....if that thing pumps out 2 1/2 inch gallonage through a smaller, easier to manuever 1 3/4, I'm all over that! See? Being old doesn't mean you have to be close-minded, right?  Right? Hey! I just re-read your posting and you never mentioned 2 inch line! That's cheating! LOL |
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Post by thelurker on Dec 13, 2007 14:52:23 GMT -5
yea not a 2" line, 2 1 and 3/4" lines..
I try not to say use a 2" line because neither of the departments I am involved with uses them. The reasoning I have heard is that the extra water is not worth the extra weight..
I will come see you tomorrow with that disk...say 10ish
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Post by FirstDue312 on Dec 13, 2007 15:02:19 GMT -5
Anybody consider the point of arson by chance.?
Almost finished house, maybe couldn't finishing paying, but they've still got that insurance right? And considering that thing is pushing so hard on Division 1 leads me to believe there could be an accelerant? I mean if it was electrical or something of an accidental in nature, I'd assume we'd be seeing smoke out of the eaves or roof vents.
Thoughts...?
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Post by thelurker on Dec 13, 2007 15:11:43 GMT -5
Anybody consider the point of arson by chance.? Almost finished house, maybe couldn't finishing paying, but they've still got that insurance right? And considering that thing is pushing so hard on Division 1 leads me to believe there could be an accelerant? I mean if it was electrical or something of an accidental in nature, I'd assume we'd be seeing smoke out of the eaves or roof vents. Thoughts...? certainly a possibility. now put it out, and we will look for accelerant trails when the house is no longer burning. there is also a possibility of getting ahead of it and preserving evidence if you enter from the unburned side. |
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Post by FirstDue312 on Dec 13, 2007 15:12:37 GMT -5
Just something to possibly heed once we go in and get it
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Post by WebBoss on Dec 13, 2007 15:31:53 GMT -5
Gee... look what I started.
There a couple of things that bother me, which is why I picked this photo out of about 35 that I'll be forwarding to the Furture Ex-BC here shortly.
The fire coming out of the wall itself, just to the visual right of the front door. This clues me into the possibility that there are no interior wall finishings or insulation, just the studs and plywood. This could be why there is such involvement in such a smaller area.
Being under construction/renovation, how's the floor currently? Is there even a floor or is it just the joists? Is the floor overweighted by construction supplies and equipment in one general area?
What else is in the house? It's snowing out, so how about Kero Space Heaters? Propane Salamanders? Torch sets and associated gases?
This one prompted me to be a little more out of the box then I usually am. While agree 100% with Dean's take on entering the opposite side, I would err more along the lines of the big lines on this one. (and you rarely hear me say that) I honestly would not be going in to far either. I might actually be prompted to hit this hard at the front door, trying to knock it down before it spreads to far, while trying to get the other line aound back. OF COURSE, the opposing lines would not be operating at the same time, just using Plan A while getting Plan B into position. I would venture to say that 90% of this fire could be done from the front door, hard and heavy, without even stepping foot in the building untill the smoke starts to ease up so we can see what we're really up against.
I like this thread... many ideas that should all accomplish the same task, safely and effectively.
Lurker, we run Smoothbore tips on 2" hose, in lieu of 2.5" preconnects at the 2-7. Has a lot more kick versus the 1 3/4" line, without the extra bulk and lack of manuverability of the 2.5" line. Each Engine has 2 preconnected, with an extra 200 dead so we can make-up long lines for the appartments and alley way jobs. Works fantistic. You are more then welcome to come and try it out at anytime.
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Post by thelurker on Dec 13, 2007 15:41:38 GMT -5
Lurker, we run Smoothbore tips on 2" hose, in lieu of 2.5" preconnects at the 2-7. Has a lot more kick versus the 1 3/4" line, without the extra bulk and lack of manuverability of the 2.5" line. Each Engine has 2 preconnected, with an extra 200 dead so we can make-up long lines for the appartments and alley way jobs. Works fantistic. You are more then welcome to come and try it out at anytime. remind me the next time you guys are doing a hose drill, I would love to come try it out, feel nozzle reaction differences and so forth. |
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Post by WebBoss on Dec 13, 2007 15:45:10 GMT -5
Uh ok... next year sometime. This fat kid dosen't work well in cold enviroments.
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1710
Forum Crew Member
Posts: 30
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Post by 1710 on Dec 13, 2007 15:49:07 GMT -5
I am with Dean on this one. 1 3/4" 15/16 through the back door. Have the OV guy at the front windows ready to take them as soon as the nozzle team gets some water on it. If you are lucky that Div C door will be a straight or semi-straight shot to the front door. Obviously the officer should be keeping an eye on his surroundings the whole time. If Sean is right about nothing but studs in there, it will be like crawling into a fireplace.
Hmm I hope the "tanker" is not to far behind!!!
Great thread and pic
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Post by 3105 on Dec 14, 2007 5:48:40 GMT -5
Lurker, we run Smoothbore tips on 2" hose, in lieu of 2.5" preconnects at the 2-7. Has a lot more kick versus the 1 3/4" line, without the extra bulk and lack of manuverability of the 2.5" line. Each Engine has 2 preconnected, with an extra 200 dead so we can make-up long lines for the appartments and alley way jobs. Works fantistic. You are more then welcome to come and try it out at anytime. remind me the next time you guys are doing a hose drill, I would love to come try it out, feel nozzle reaction differences and so forth. I'd like to see that too....have been pondering the 2 inch stuff ever since I saw it in the Boro.... Sean's comments are thought provoking...never considered the under construction scenario....excellent call and hopefully a reminder to the crews to communicate what they see to the Ops officer. As far as arson, a good point but that's for the prevention weenies...they're welcome to sift through the ashes when I'm done...LOL. Jon's comment provokes this thought in light of the job Riverside caught a few weeks back: is the place booby-trapped? |
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Post by thelurker on Dec 15, 2007 13:37:00 GMT -5
heheh...rick said boobies!!!
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Right?