Make The Call #22

[3105]

Courtesy of hp4l...

make the call...and why

[JDub]

From the looks of it.....it is starting to make its way into the actual living area of the house. 2 1/2 or deck gun to knock down the garage and car. Send a crew in to try and stop the fire in its tracks. Crew to divsion two to check for extension. Most likely have to open up the roof of the house.

[windtunnel]

haha where to begin? the garage is a total loss and creeping on the dwelling..... it looks like there is already fire present in the dwelling go on the offensive and go find it in the house check all void spaces..... get another attack team with a 2 1/2 on the garage and knock it hard....

[bricker252]

The Crews in the Picture seem to be doing the right thing. I would go offensive and put a few lines through the front door and push it out. It seems like it's starting to extent to the house so all the more reason not to push it in to it. If any external attack I would put a line shooting the roof to slow extension and maybe on the car to slow it down but mainly go offensive and push it out. Also I would not put any one under that garage, I would put it at soon to be unstable.

[3105]

We had a fire almost exactly like this a few years ago in town; the strategic sequence went like this:

Defensive: first due engine established a smooth bore deck gun stream at the juncture of the house and garage....and stayed there, ignoring the bulk of the fire. The point of this was to (hopefully) prevent further exension into the dwelling. Engine crew then began stretching hand lines towards Division A door.

The Transitional phase was momentary; once they got water at the doorway, the crew then pushed the fire inside the house back towards the garage while another crew dep[loyed a back up line.

Offensive; as soon as the attack crew were satisfied that fire had not extended beyond their stream and the back up crew was ready to rock and roll, the two crews would then enter and in this case, would make a left to push it back to where it came from.

To me, many fires are multi-moded, meaning we have an initial posture which then changes through a Transitional phase until we get the result we're looking for (unless, of course, something happens).

This is about watching carefully and adjusting your mode to suit the circumstances presented, NOT deciding something, then stubbornly sticking to it despite watching it fail. This is strictly "big picture" stuff that requires trying to stay ahead of the situation, not playing catch-up.

[cheeseunit31]

this will show you how much of a wacker i really am...this house fire was in cherry hill. I think the boys have it right....get in that front door and knock the crap out of it and push it out, gotta get a 2nd line to div 2 asap looks like it is auto exposing up there..couple things to consider, 1- its a garage so only god knows what the homeowner is storing in there, any occupants at home? there is a car in the drive way. gotta get an officer to get around back and take a look at the layout of the house, there might be an addition that we can't see from the front, although it looks like a standard mo-town split level.

[3105]

3105 said:

We had a fire almost exactly like this a few years ago in town; the strategic sequence went like this:

Defensive: first due engine established a smooth bore deck gun stream at the juncture of the house and garage....and stayed there, ignoring the bulk of the fire. The point of this was to (hopefully) prevent further exension into the dwelling. Engine crew then began stretching hand lines towards Division A door.

The Transitional phase was momentary; once they got water at the doorway, the crew then pushed the fire inside the house back towards the garage while another crew dep[loyed a back up line.

Offensive; as soon as the attack crew were satisfied that fire had not extended beyond their stream and the back up crew was ready to rock and roll, the two crews would then enter and in this case, would make a left to push it back to where it came from.

To me, many fires are multi-moded, meaning we have an initial posture which then changes through a Transitional phase until we get the result we're looking for (unless, of course, something happens).

This is about watching carefully and adjusting your mode to suit the circumstances presented, NOT deciding something, then stubbornly sticking to it despite watching it fail. This is strictly "big picture" stuff that requires trying to stay ahead of the situation, not playing catch-up.

One important side note to my comment: the initial deck gun operation I described was terminated BEFORE the crew entered the building....operating exterior and interior lines at the same time is bad ju-ju and one of the leading indications of NTS. For our younger firefighters reading this forum:

[glow=red,2,300]NEVER USE AN EXTERIOR STREAM WHEN THERE'S A CREW INSIDE - YOU WILL BURN THEM! [/glow]

Sorry for the emphasis but I've witnessed exterior firefighters nonchalantly hosing down some fire they see inside a structure when there's a crew trying to operate in there. This is one the Top Ten No-No's in our line of work....right up there with pushing water through a vent hole.

[3105]

Have to agree with everyone's thoughts so far...definitely Offensive based on the smoke read....the fire has not yet extended to the main structure, but is definitely working it's way in that direction. This is where time becomes a critical factor; we have GOT to place the attack and vent crews in position quickly in order to produce a positive outcome...the longer we diddle around, the greater the possiblity of extension into the attic void. A second and third lines need to be stretched ASAP also, one for Division 2 and the other to protect the interior stairway. Div 2 crew: hook the ceilings pronto-like to make certain it didn't gain access to the attic.

OK...let's do a head count here: based on my comment, we will need the following personnel:

2 FFs for Div 1 attack
2 FFs for Div 2 attack
2 FF's for Back-Up
2 FF's for Vent/Overhaul
2 FF's for Primary Search
2 FF's for TITO (Two In Two Out)
2 D/O's for engines
1 D/O for truck
1 Ops Officer
1 IC

That's a total of 17...and all within the initial ops segment of the incident - say within seven minutes of dispatch. OK, let's take it one step further: of the seventeen listed, eight should be replaced within ten minutes of arrival (yes, I know you are all tough guys but no one has a red "S" under their turnout coat)...which translates to another two to three engine companies within that all-important ten minute time span.

Do you think I'm overreacting? I would argue that no, not really when you consider how many 30 to 40 year olds are experiencing cardiac problems due to being overweight/out of shape....

[RngrVnc33]

Agree with all....... knock the hell out of the garage with the deck gun, while setting up for an aggressive interior attack to push it back out holding with 2 and 1 depending on progress of initial crews

-Knott-

[WebBoss]

3105 said:

Have to agree with everyone's thoughts so far...definitely Offensive based on the smoke read....the fire has not yet extended to the main structure, but is definitely working it's way in that direction. This is where time becomes a critical factor; we have GOT to place the attack and vent crews in position quickly in order to produce a positive outcome...the longer we diddle around, the greater the possiblity of extension into the attic void. A second and third lines need to be stretched ASAP also, one for Division 2 and the other to protect the interior stairway. Div 2 crew: hook the ceilings pronto-like to make certain it didn't gain access to the attic.

OK...let's do a head count here: based on my comment, we will need the following personnel:

2 FFs for Div 1 attack
2 FFs for Div 2 attack
2 FF's for Back-Up
2 FF's for Vent/Overhaul
2 FF's for Primary Search
2 FF's for TITO (Two In Two Out)
2 D/O's for engines
1 D/O for truck
1 Ops Officer
1 IC

That's a total of 17...and all within the initial ops segment of the incident - say within seven minutes of dispatch. OK, let's take it one step further: of the seventeen listed, eight should be replaced within ten minutes of arrival (yes, I know you are all tough guys but no one has a red "S" under their turnout coat)...which translates to another two to three engine companies within that all-important ten minute time span.

Do you think I'm overreacting? I would argue that no, not really when you consider how many 30 to 40 year olds are experiencing cardiac problems due to being overweight/out of shape....

I think that is a very feasable assesment.

When you sort out the people, it comes out to be 3 Engines, 1 Truck, 1 additional company (to make TITO/RIC) and a Chief or 2. WAIT A MINUTE! How Ironic is that... That's the Burlington County minimum staffing requirements that are rarely followed.

Hopefully the incident is stabilized within the first 10 minutes or so. If not, then more help should be on the way because you will more then likely need it. There is no real reason though that this can't be handled quickly with the initial response companies.

[3105]

I'm actually very embarrassed to discover that I made a HUGE error in my "personnel needed" list..the grand total should be 18 since I <gasp> left off the Incident Safety Officer.

Now, before anyone says "No big deal, the IC/Ops/Company Officer can handle that function as well as their own job", I would submit that doing that is like not appointing an ISO....

[glow=red,2,300]Also, is everyone aware that appointment of a dedicated ISO is MANDATORY under the State Fire Code?[/glow]