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Post by Kramer on Dec 12, 2007 21:16:09 GMT -5
These have been used countless times since their inception, but the other night my engine(4112) was reassigned to assist the one that was dispatched to District 21. While on this i was thinking that if we had gotten tapped out for another fire that we would need a tanker due to no hydrants in most of the district, but they didnt have a tanker on the cover, but there was supposed to be a ladder. is there any way that these could be more specialized for the region they are being sent to?
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ENG27SQ
Division Supervisor 
MS Paint Guru
Posts: 653
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Post by ENG27SQ on Dec 13, 2007 10:05:33 GMT -5
These have been used countless times since their inception, but the other night my engine(4112) was reassigned to assist the one that was dispatched to District 21. While on this i was thinking that if we had gotten tapped out for another fire that we would need a tanker due to no hydrants in most of the district, but they didnt have a tanker on the cover, but there was supposed to be a ladder. is there any way that these could be more specialized for the region they are being sent to? Id shoot an email to 1511 or 1900/1710 ask, seriously. I know 1900/1710 are working on the TANKER-Task-Force, as we were recently added (finally) but Im not sure if they are also on the board for the Regional department. Just my .02 |
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Post by WebBoss on Dec 13, 2007 10:18:14 GMT -5
Your added to the what where???
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riverlinetk
Division Supervisor
Training Aide
Posts: 49
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Post by riverlinetk on Dec 14, 2007 12:21:30 GMT -5
I thought the intent of these was to not create larger holes of resouces by just continuing to draw from the next due companies. With companies redoing their grids for the new dispatch procedures it looks like task force coverages were added by many and now don't reflect the goals of the concept to pull resources from an area not close in proximity to an incident. An example of where it worked well, that I remember. Cinnaminson had a daytime house fire with many resources committed and the regional was medford and evesham. That seemed to make sense.
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Post by Kramer on Dec 14, 2007 12:45:17 GMT -5
well, this one was in springfield, and utilized 431, 251, and 281. they just ressigned 4112 because we werent needed at the scene and knew the area
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Post by shader101 on Dec 15, 2007 22:56:04 GMT -5
looks good on paper, works some times, implemented too late most of the time, prob run like most things in this county by the good old boy network
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Post by 3105 on Dec 16, 2007 6:35:23 GMT -5
looks good on paper, works some times, implemented too late most of the time, prob run like most things in this county by the good old boy network If I'm not mistaken, the regionals are chosen by the County Coordinator, which means they aren't good old boy network..or at least they shouldn't be. To me, they make sense, especially in this day and age of dwindling personnel and resources. As mentioned perviously, I found myself covering three towns with an engine from Cherry Hill and a ladder from Haddonfield during a housefire in Cinn City a couple of years ago because everybody and their cousin in the area was over there at the time. |
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riverlinetk
Division Supervisor
Training Aide
Posts: 49
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Post by riverlinetk on Dec 16, 2007 7:00:31 GMT -5
I also thought that they were supposed to be implemented and selected by the county. However, I know that at least several towns have them preselected in their grids (and they are not fulfilling the goals of the task force). I'm not sure there is some of the good ol boys network going on, but people are definitely not using the resource allocation adequately sometimes. This doesn't apply to everyone but generally it seems to be true. If you look back at some of the larger incidents in the past year there has been a significant hole at times.
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hp4l
Division Supervisor
Remember Your Roots
Posts: 600
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Post by hp4l on Dec 16, 2007 12:13:20 GMT -5
Question for the Chief officers and the dispatchers. If each station is to develop grids and responses up to the fourth alarm, and the regional cover comes in after the second, do the grids get followed? It seems like most multi-alarm incidents get a regional cover. Does that then change how the responses were previously set up?
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Post by shader101 on Dec 16, 2007 12:36:41 GMT -5
after the 3 or 4 alarm does it really matter what companys you get by then? if your 3 or 4th hast 3 engines 2 ladders and a special(cascade or rescue pf what ever) do you really care where or what county or station they come from at that point, why not just make grids to the 3 or 2nd and after that give the dispatchers some leeway and say what u want not who ?
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hp4l
Division Supervisor
Remember Your Roots
Posts: 600
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Post by hp4l on Dec 16, 2007 16:12:52 GMT -5
I think that each department needs to specify how they want their assignments handled up to a certain alarm. This county I believe is the fourth alarm. But then a coordinator comes in and switches it with the regional taskforce. And nothing against the dispatchers, but I think they have enough on their plates without having to pick 3 engines, 1 ladder, 1 special unit for your 3rd alarm. The chiefs of the departments should have that figured out already. Just my opinion though.
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Post by WebBoss on Dec 16, 2007 18:25:55 GMT -5
In the spirit of this site being as non bashing as possible, I'm going to attempt to put this in the most PC way possible, and please understand, that I am not making any attacks on any one person or another.
One of the problems with the regional covers is that they too strip too much of one region or another. By having them preplanned, it now causes issues where instead of having one big open area around an incident, now you have the area around the incident, and another hole around where the strike team came from.
Facing the facts, during the day time just about every company in the county is limited to "Single Pull" reliability. Meaning their only good for one resource. Unfortunately, some companies have a hard time providing just one piece reliably. During the night, I personally would consider every company "Single Pull" but there are a few that you can county on for more. Should we really be counting on "Sometimes" though?
The dispatchers are also not given credit for knowing the trends of the companeis. Beings that the dispatchers are the only ones that know each and every company and their abilities, why are they left out of the loop on making these calls?
IMHO, it seems that sometimes these regional task forces are forced on areas that really don't need them. A couple of well placed resources to me makes much better scense then moving a pack of units from clear across the county into another area, an area of which these companies are not going to be famillier with at all.
By policy, every company is supposed to have submitted grids up to the 4th alarm, and these grids are supposed to meet the BCFCA's minimum response policy. These grids are also supposed to be approved by the Chief Fire Coordinator prior to being put into the system at central. Now, there are departments that have some serious overkill grids, then there is at least one department that has 1 Engine and 1 Ladder only for each additional alarm. (2nd, 3rd, 4th). There is even a couple of departments that use the Regional Taskforces as 2nd and greater alarms. Simply, there is no rhyme or reason, and there isn't going to be as long as everyone is allowed to have their own "Buddy Boxes" in place to cover thier "Sandbox."
Again, just in my opinion, local grids should be followed up to what they list as much as possible. If we're not going to follow them, then why even have them. The regional taskforces should come into play when the grids are exhausted, or when the combination of resources being used is outweighed by the resources that failed to respond.
One last comment to these taskforces, they are not serving any good purpose all camping out in one spot covering 3,4,5 or more towns. Spread them out to back fill several companies. Sure you can run them together, but use them to your advantage, not just lump pile them into one house and say "This 20 square mile area is yours." Your not doing any good service to those who live on the outskirts of that area, and this is not how we should be doing business.
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riverlinetk
Division Supervisor
Training Aide
Posts: 49
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Post by riverlinetk on Dec 17, 2007 6:59:33 GMT -5
So what would it take to allow for the discretion of who goes where, and when to fall on the supervisor at central? (granted this might not be the end all fix either). This would allow for less areas to be depleted if someone were able to realistically look at a situation and fill holes as necessary.
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Post by 3105 on Dec 17, 2007 7:15:08 GMT -5
From their very inception, I've recognized that Regionals are nothing more than a band-aid for dwindling resources....and the situation isn't getting any better folks.
No matter what system is used, you simply can't "create" personnel out of thin air...every town has this problem and it's indicative of the world we now live in...in simple, concise terms: we're trying to make do with less.
Every firefighter we pull from out of town leaves one less to cover their town's own needs....
Here's my perspective: years ago, none of this was required because each department could usually muster thirty firefighters to a working job...mutual aid, if needed, just covered the local while you were busy putting out the fire. I could count on one hand the number of fires I went to out of town in the first ten years of my career...it just didn't happen.
Fast forward to today and we now need three towns to fight a house fire...not from the apparatus standpoint, but from a personnel one. Blame OSHA, NFPA, your local chief, or whatever boogyman you'd like..it simply a fact of life.
Sean's comment about a "Single Pull" speaks volumes of the problem...personally, I shutter whenever multiple units are pulled out of town because I know that leaves me with fewer personnel to cover my own local.
And yet....
If we try to pull back from providing mutual aid, the "house of cards" will begin to collapse..a scenario that has nothing but ugly consequences. We can try this or tweak that, but as my dear old Dad used to say, the bottom line is still the same: "You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear"
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gotwork
Special Operations Command
Doin' It Our Way
Posts: 73
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Post by gotwork on Dec 17, 2007 10:24:04 GMT -5
These taskforces are tough. I can totally see their validity for an incident like the Warren grove fire where you are going to use resources faster than you can get them to the scene, traditional alarms do not work that quickly. However, if we have all set our grids up properly up to the fourth alarm with consideration for covers for neighboring communties then they would not be needed. I believe this is one of those areas where the Central dispatchers should have some freedom to strongly "recommend" to an IC that additional units should be placed in "stripped" areas.
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Post by 3105 on Dec 17, 2007 10:54:01 GMT -5
These taskforces are tough. I can totally see their validity for an incident like the Warren grove fire where you are going to use resources faster than you can get them to the scene, traditional alarms do not work that quickly. However, if we have all set our grids up properly up to the fourth alarm with consideration for covers for neighboring communties then they would not be needed. I believe this is one of those areas where the Central dispatchers should have some freedom to strongly "recommend" to an IC that additional units should be placed in "stripped" areas. I agree...let's face it, when the typical chief sits down and tries to figure out his grids, they usually approach the task from an operational perspective - what THEY are going to need in the event of a Really Big One....and that's not a criticism, just a fact. I hardly think any of them are really thinking about other towns and their ability to cover their own needs while he's busy using one of their resources. This is where, like Chief Johnson, I think we have to let our trained and capable communicators/dispatchers use their expertise and knowledge to selectively assign resources where they are needed based on a mimimum standard of perhaps a engine/truck/rescue per assigned area. The other thing I think would help is for IC's to recognize and release mutual aid units early in the process if they won't be needed...something that I think for the most part happens now in the majority of cases.... |
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
Posts: 84
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Post by Reverend on Dec 17, 2007 19:52:42 GMT -5
Since this thread has leaned a little toward the grid selection process, I will tell you what the Good Reverend thinks. Where their is comfort in knowing what resources you as the chief have selected for your first four alarms, their is more comfort hearing actual units signing on radio enroute to your job, after the first dispatch. The County needs to decide how many units are required for each type of dispatch (3&1, 2&2) and dispatch them based of of geographic location not whos town its in or whos buddy made the response grid. Any other apparatus responding in would than be extra or assigned as needed. Would this piss some people off who make the third truck out of their station, yep or anger those who could possibly be recalled off an incident in their own town, yep. But it is not about those guys its is about getting quick ,quality, and reliable emergency responses for the people who are having their worst day. The people we signed on to protect. Remember Brothers, this is one of the only businesses that defaults to helping people and not ourselves. When all else fails, they call us. We can do better with our delivery system. Stay Safe
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Post by Kramer on Dec 18, 2007 7:24:28 GMT -5
ok, now back to my original question...what about specializing them a little more to the needs of the area theyre going to. we could use a tanker a hell of a lot better than a 100' tower in this area...
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
Posts: 84
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Post by Reverend on Dec 18, 2007 9:03:08 GMT -5
Rural Taskforce and Suburban Taskforce???
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Post by Kramer on Dec 18, 2007 9:09:04 GMT -5
haha dont forget urban taskforce...they get swat gear to put under the turnout gear
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