Pump Ops

[3105]

Josh sent the following request:

I was going to post something about Pump ops. I just completed the class so I was going to ask people about their SOGS...

Another good venue for discussion...personally, I truly APPRECIATE a well-trained, knowledgeable, and proactive pump operator...not an everyday occurance anymore. Having trained a lot of our department's Engine D/O's, it's an area I have a great deal of interest in.

Having said that, I should also point out that I am undeniably the most mathematically-challenged individual in the world (anything over ten requires taking off my shoes) so I tend to deal with hydraulics and friction loss in broad-based terms and handy-dandy "rule of thumbs".

A good pump operator is often overlooked during the back-slapping phase afterwards, but without them, the red stuff would win...

[hp4l]

I believe that pump operators can get rusty due to the lack of fire activity that we see in this area. This is another way that live fire training can help. Not only do the guys and girls get to practice with some live evolutions, but the pump operators get to join in on the action and refresh their skills. Over in the 20th, we have daily, weekly, and monthly truck checks. The pumps get ran at least monthly. Not only are you checking the truck, but you are also refreshing your pump skills.

[3105]

I told myself I won't go tripping down memory lane too much, but Jim's avatar brings back memories of the old John Bean firefighting methods we were taught oh - too - many years ago when the Fire Academy was held at the Nike missile base in Marlton.

John Bean (the company, not the person) advocated "high pressure" hose streams to literally mist a fire to death, albeit in the form of steam (the avatar is a picture of 251's John Bean pumper). If memory serves, I think pump/nozzle pressures used in this system approached something outrageously off the charts, like 800 psi....the nozzle itself had two handles like a Tommy Gun...and you needed both of them, trust me.

The concept was this: you approached a burning house, poked a hole in the siding of the fire room, then stuck the tiny nozzle through the opening and let er rip. Under such tremedulously high pressure, two things happened: the first being that the water being shot in was instantly atomized and filled the entire fire room with a cooling mist, and secondly, if you didn't have four beefy guys backing you up when you pulled trigger, chances were better than average that you'd wind up picking yourself up off the ground.

For obvious reasons (too many butt contusions), the method never really caught on, although it was "cutting edge" back in the early seventies (remember: so was disco). LOL

We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread......

[laddertruckgoes]

The old 1215 (The Ford C 65' Step Ladder) was the one of the other county pieces to have the Bean HP Pump. I have to look but I bet there's one of the extra nozzles around somewhere to play with. It really was a good idea back in it's day. I'm actually surprised that no one has championed the idea with the growing trend towards "Outstanding Firefighters" these days.

There's a story that gets told about a Christmas tree fire in Edgewater where they used the "FOG Pipe" and extinguished the tree without damaging the presents under the tree. Wish there was pictures.

On to the actual topic at hand...

When pumping, which is something I get way too much practice at (no pun intended), but I too am not a mathmatical wizard, especially at ohh dark & ugly in the morning. I do everything by the rules of 5's and 10's.

All in PSI's:

Nozzle Pressure 100 for Automatic/Fog, 70 for Smoothbore

10 pounds per length (50') attack line (under 4")
5 pounds per length (100') of LDH (4 and 5 inch)
10 pounds per floor (only figured at >3 stories)
5 pounds per appliance

All aerials (real trucks, sans pumps) get 130 at the base to start off.

Standpipes get 100-150 depending on the size and height of the building.

For extra credit, loud mouth rookie nozzlemen get 5psi per year in the service under 10 years total.

An excellent rule of thumb for exterior operations is the pump pressure is just right when the nozzlemen is only slightly off the ground. (From the truckie's guide to engine company chauffer operations)

[hp4l]

Ah, the high pressure. Medford's 1992 E-One Engine still has the high pressure as well as the brush truck that I use as my avatar (I love the Bean.) The Squrt had it too, but we all know what happened to that. I was training on the Engine but never technically completed the training as I was hired in Cinn City and had to resign from the Medford Fire Dept. The high pressure I'm sure was nice when it was popular but the only thing it is used for now is small brush fires and water fights at the firehouse (the team with the high pressure always won.) It was also used one other time within the last couple years but I won't get into that on here.

[3105]

Getting back to the original concept, our department has little written down regarding procedures but a long institutional trend towards certain pump techniques and procedures.

One of the things I'm adament about when teaching pump ops is a good, solid foundation in pump theory...understanding HOW the pump does it's job can extricate your butt from many a dicey situation because you instinctively understand what the problem is and how to fix it. Most pump op screw up's usually feature the D/O standing at the panel, scratching his/her head - a good indication that they have absolutely NO clue what's happening and worse yet, how to correct it.

Pump theory doesn't have to be a four-hour Death March; I've done it in less than an hour and can usually see the old light of knowledge on the students face when I'm finished: "So THAT's how it's done!" look.

Secondly, I teach a basic mandra that, combined with theory, will always lead a D/O to a conclusion during times of trouble...anyone who ever was trained by me knows "The Rule":

In order to pump water, you need three things:
1) a functioning pump
2) a source of water, and
3) a place to put the water.

Sounds deceptively simple, but in my experience, 99.999% of all fireground pumping screw ups can be easily identifed and corrected if you simply follow the above rule and check each item as you do it.

For example: no water.
Is the pump in gear?
Have you pulled "Tank to Pump" or opened your intake?
Is the right discharge open all the way?

Think about the times you were baffled (we've all had them) and ask if the above wouldn't have helped focus on a solution...chances are it would.

[JDub]

Popchesse as always you are the man with the plan. Now as hp4l will tell you we have had to draft once or twice before. Does 311 conduct drafting drills or do you guys add it on to another drill?

[hp4l]

Here is something to think about. Do the guys in the land of hydrants know how to work with hydrants on wheels (tenders)? And vice-versa? With regional covers now, how many times have river companies ended up in the pines? Are they trained to get water without their trusty plug? Something to consider as companies can respond anywhere in this county and other counties.

[Kramer]

Funny story about cross training with tankers and hydrants was during the forest fire when the river company pipeline was there...their taskforce was within the ops range for where we were at, so when their leader gave central a rundown of what they had central asked if they wanted a tender. He told central to stand by and then got on ops and asked " do i need a tender?" in a what the hell did i just get into voice.


anyway back to the question asked, i personally am trained in both because the districts i run in are at least partially hydranted so i get the "best" of both worlds

[ENG27SQ]

Thats always and will continue to always be an issue. Rolling Hydrants and Stationary Hydrants. And somehow it always comes back to the "River Rats versus the Pines" every time. What would be a good idea is to have a county wide drill and I mean county wide, not inviting companies you like, bring EVERYONE.

The southern companies go to the Riverfront and do some training on hydrants, sprinkler systems, charging them, establishing a much easier means of water supply. Learn the pipeline system. The northern companies come to the Pines, learn what a Tanker, yes TANKER shuttle, portable ponds, and how to establish and keep the water supply. They could do Drafting as well.

What's the harm in us learning their way and vice versa?

Do some scenarios. For the southern companies going to the riverfront make a scenario up i.e 2 story SFD with heavy fire on the 2nd floor with 1 hydrant a block and a half away, what do you do and you have 5 engines, 1 tower and 2 rescues coming in.For the northern companies, same scenario, 2 story SFD with heavy fire 2nd floor, no hydrants (obviously) must use them TANKERS. Practice using the shuttle and draft points.

This could only better Burlington County. IMHO this would only benefit us to work together even better.

**Yes, I emphasized Tanker, I was raised on it **

[JDub]

I agree we should cross train but it won't be as easy as you think. We would have to have multiple days because we can't strip an entire section of our county to go to the other. I however agree we should cross train. Maybe the Burlco Chiefs have already established this idea. Something we as a county should look into.

[ENG27SQ]

Well I understand that Josh it would definitely be a lengthy set of days but I believe something like that would pay off.


Look at Wildwood this past September. Beverly had apartments go up, called for Mutual Aid as far as PEMBERTON TOWNSHIP. Due to all of us being uh...not in the right state of mine. Anywho. That would be a call we could use as an example. Im sure any of us could tag a hydrant but the right way? And keep the water supply going?

[thelurker]

3105 said:

G
Secondly, I teach a basic mandra that, combined with theory, will always lead a D/O to a conclusion during times of trouble...anyone who ever was trained by me knows "The Rule":

In order to pump water, you need three things:
1) a functioning pump
2) a source of water, and
3) a place to put the water.

For example: no water.
Is the pump in gear?
Have you pulled "Tank to Pump" or opened your intake?
Is the right discharge open all the way?

I like and will always default to what Ex-Chief Hawkins taught me about pumping...What is the job of a fire engine? Water In- Water Out. If you aren't bringing water into the pump, then you can't be putting water outta the pump. So easy, yet so true. The other thing the taught me about being a D/O is, if they pull out in front of us, we will stop on our way back to peel them out of the tunnel, I am not killing a truck full of firemen because a car pulled out in front of me. While this might go against every safety rule and such, it's very true. Fire trucks don't stop on a dime, and will roll if you try to get to evasive, sometimes you just have to choose the less of the evils.

Also I can't tell you how many times going through that mental checklist you mentioned has saved me. I also like to mimick the motions I went through real fast to see if I can find where I missed. I am a habitual misser of pulling the tank to pump valve, and I know it, so that is the first place I check.

[thelurker]

jdub said:

I agree we should cross train but it won't be as easy as you think. We would have to have multiple days because we can't strip an entire section of our county to go to the other. I however agree we should cross train. Maybe the Burlco Chiefs have already established this idea. Something we as a county should look into.

I know at least one of you guys is a 2/20 but this has happened quite a few times already. I know my memory has been getting questionable lately, but i remember at least semi-recently drilling in a tanker relay along the riverfront in Burlington City. I believe there were tankers there from Tabernacle, Vincentown, Westampton, and maybe a few others. The drill consisted of setting up a draft site, establishing a tanker relay to 2 port-a-ponds, and then pumping from the ponds down close to 1000' of 5" to a Quint or TL.

I believe laddertruckgoes was responsible for coordinating that specific drill.

And I know I have been to a few others during my short tenure in the fire service.

Maybe the problem isn't that the drills don't exist.....JDUB, how often does your department train with it's surrounding companies let alone others in the county? And when they do, what is the outcome of such training. I wonder if that has any sort of reflection on the quantity of mutual aid the department is asked to provide, or not.

Keith, I don't know what you guys do, so I won't involve you in this one.

[3105]

Friggin great posts....<rubbing my hands briskly>.....OK:

1) The cross-training thing is a great idea and I'm inspired. Here's how to make it work: identify the tanker/tender company you're most likely to work with, then bring them over for a drill. Nothing too daunting, just a look-see and perhaps and evolution or two. If nothing else, as everyone so accurately pointed out, it will familiarize everyone and make them aware of the possibilties.

2) Just because you have hydrants doesn't mean you won't need a mobile water supply...we have several pockets of unprotected, semi-wildland areas in Motown that could easily require a tanker/tender assignment.

3) The forest fire earlier this year illustrates the need even more. If I had been driving the engine, I would have been woefully unprepared to supply/receive from the Mucho H2O guys. Thankfully I was on the rescue...that wildland stuff scares the crap out of me!

4) Lurker's point about training with surrounding companies is a personal sore spot for me; we regularly dispatch 361, 231, 202, 101, and 313 to first alarm assignments and only regularly drill with 313. This needs to be addressed more although to be perfectly truthful, the scheduling and logistics can be nightmarish at times.

Pump ops is a topic near and dear to my heart and Lurker's comment about repeating things to himself mirrors something that I do. If you happen to be in the front seat of 3112 when I'm driving it to a working job, you would notice me quietly repeating the phrase "Switch first....switch first...switch first" to myself. For some inexplicable reason, I always forget to throw the Pump Shift Switch BEFORE putting it in Drive...a very embarrassing mistake. My little mantra prevents that from happening (hopefully).

Another pump ops point that's vitally important: avoid the stampede mentality. You all have been there, so you know what the inside of a cab is like when everyone hears they're going to work: in a word, bedlam. Shouting, cussing, backslapping, high-fives...the entire emotional spectrum compressed into two very exciting minutes. No matter what anyone may think, this atmosphere affects the D/O, who will then exit the cab like a cannon shot and begin pulling levers - any lever - to get water to his troops.

I tell my D/O's: SLOW DOWN. Be methodical and precise. Ignore the hand-waving, shouts of "WTF!", and garbled radio transmissions. Nothing's worse than trying to solve an adrenaline produced error...the mind will instantly go blank. SLOW DOWN...picture the three step process I alluded to earlier: "I need a source of water, a functioning pump, and a place to put the water". SLOW DOWN: Take the extra three seconds to visually check that the handline is stretched, manned, and ready before shooting them the juice...

Lastly: Repeat after me: "More pressure DOES NOT produce more water". How many of you have seen a nervous D/O try to solve a water issue by turning the throttle like he's winding his wristwatch, as if revving the engine will somehow miraculously create water?

Whew...all that on one cup of coffee! Time for a refill....

Let's keep sharing these nuggets of info....

[JDub]

thelurker said:

jdub said:

I agree we should cross train but it won't be as easy as you think. We would have to have multiple days because we can't strip an entire section of our county to go to the other. I however agree we should cross train. Maybe the Burlco Chiefs have already established this idea. Something we as a county should look into.

I know at least one of you guys is a 2/20 but this has happened quite a few times already. I know my memory has been getting questionable lately, but i remember at least semi-recently drilling in a tanker relay along the riverfront in Burlington City. I believe there were tankers there from Tabernacle, Vincentown, Westampton, and maybe a few others. The drill consisted of setting up a draft site, establishing a tanker relay to 2 port-a-ponds, and then pumping from the ponds down close to 1000' of 5" to a Quint or TL.

I believe laddertruckgoes was responsible for coordinating that specific drill.

And I know I have been to a few others during my short tenure in the fire service.

Maybe the problem isn't that the drills don't exist.....JDUB, how often does your department train with it's surrounding companies let alone others in the county? And when they do, what is the outcome of such training. I wonder if that has any sort of reflection on the quantity of mutual aid the department is asked to provide, or not.

Keith, I don't know what you guys do, so I won't involve you in this one.

Hey, I know the issues that fall back on my department and unfortunately there is only little I can do. What I do is hang out at the firehouse and get on the truck for every call I make and try to learn as much as i can.

Also, Lurker, if you are referring to me as a 2/20 I will no longer post on this site because I was offering an opinion on a topic that I thought could help...

[JDub]

fire292rescue said:

Well I understand that Josh it would definitely be a lengthy set of days but I believe something like that would pay off.


Look at Wildwood this past September. Beverly had apartments go up, called for Mutual Aid as far as PEMBERTON TOWNSHIP. Due to all of us being uh...not in the right state of mine. Anywho. That would be a call we could use as an example. Im sure any of us could tag a hydrant but the right way? And keep the water supply going?

Hey I think we should go for it and if I can help some how let me know.

[WebBoss]

Lurker and Others;

The drill that was held in Burlington City a couple of years back was opened up to the surrounding departments. Originally, the idea was what if the a Pipeline had to bring a fill site closer to a fire scene where tankers were the primary source of water. That led into the reverse side of it as what if a Pipeline was being supplied by a tanker shuttle.

Being that Chief's Pratt, Welling, and Gerber are always on my speed dial list, it was very easy to pick up the phone, schedule the time, and in came tankers. The grand side of this was also that all three of these gentleman are very well versed, all work together, and were more then happy to teach respective portions of the drill based on their experiance, versus my general knowledge of book reading and buffing.

I know at least 2 of those men read this site often, and I'm sure they would be more then happy to help out at any time.

One of the more frequent uses of Tankers in our county has actually been on RT295 and the NJTP. Florence, Hainesport, Lumberton, and Medford have all visited these highways at least once this year.

To keep my own skills up on tanker operations, I try to make sure I visit Vincentown at least twice a year and refresh my own skills with 1716. It's all fun and games untill you fall into the portable pond while trying to set it up... and they like to bite fingers too.

I'll look around, but I do think i still have the drill outline for the urban interface tanker drill that was in D90. Let me know if you want it and I'll email it off to you.

[JDub]

Webboss if you could email it to me at [e-mail] I would like to look at it (not that I will understand it) but it would be interesting literature to look over.

[thelurker]

jdub said:

thelurker said:

I know at least one of you guys is a 2/20 but this has happened quite a few times already. I know my memory has been getting questionable lately, but i remember at least semi-recently drilling in a tanker relay along the riverfront in Burlington City. I believe there were tankers there from Tabernacle, Vincentown, Westampton, and maybe a few others. The drill consisted of setting up a draft site, establishing a tanker relay to 2 port-a-ponds, and then pumping from the ponds down close to 1000' of 5" to a Quint or TL.

I believe laddertruckgoes was responsible for coordinating that specific drill.

And I know I have been to a few others during my short tenure in the fire service.

Maybe the problem isn't that the drills don't exist.....JDUB, how often does your department train with it's surrounding companies let alone others in the county? And when they do, what is the outcome of such training. I wonder if that has any sort of reflection on the quantity of mutual aid the department is asked to provide, or not.

Keith, I don't know what you guys do, so I won't involve you in this one.

Hey, I know the issues that fall back on my department and unfortunately there is only little I can do. What I do is hang out at the firehouse and get on the truck for every call I make and try to learn as much as i can.

Also, Lurker, if you are referring to me as a 2/20 I will no longer post on this site because I was offering an opinion on a topic that I thought could help...

Put on your big boy pants JDub. I was trying to point out to you that this idea already happens. Get that course thing from Sean, read it, and if you have any questions about it, ask Jim or I. The best way to get an understanding of how this works, is to talk to these guys from the pines, and attend one of their drill when they practice it. I will tell you from being at the one in Burlington, they are damn good at it, really quick to get it in operation, and more than happy to show you the tricks of the trade, explain jet siphoning, and tell you about the balls in the pool.