Standing orders

[hp4l]

To quote the great Peter Griffin: "You know what really grinds my gears..."

I am at work right now listening to a call in another local (I won't say who) and the command officer is telling every single piece of equipment what to do. I mean everyone, even fire police. So that got me thinking about this topic.

Does your department have standing orders for your apparatus? Do your engines, trucks, rescues, bls, etc. know what their jobs are? Granted, some incidents are going to require orders that are different than usual. But do we really need to tell the engine to proceed to Division A, fire police to the intersection, second engine stand by at the hydrant? Why are we doing this? Do we not trust the people riding in the officer's seat of the trucks coming in? Do we just want to talk on the radio?

I'm not trying to start an arguement. That's why I'm not listing the town I heard this from. Just trying to get some opinions.

[wellingcountry]

Jim,

I think many of us agree with you on this but the problem is first off many departments do not have standing orders because you could go to these are just examples not pick on any one Mt Holly and the second engines job is to hit the hydrant but when you go to Tabernacle its job is to take the truck company position. These we fictional but I believe this is what could happen if we all had standing orders. However I know myself and several members from 171 are on a committee to come up with standing orders in the southern region so that we can cut down on people having to be told what to do. I think it would be great for the county even to have standing orders across the board so that it would cut down on confusion and it would pretty much be the same across the board. The best place to start however is on the local level. Something however should be known right now like if your a tanker you would be part of water supply. I think if people do not have standing orders and they must ask for orders that it should be done on ops rather than on the response channel. All and all the officer and the crew depending should report to the ICP and face to face for orders. Now that I am off my rant I agree that standing orders is a good Idea and would help to cut down on confusion.

[hp4l]

I just think if you are responding to a call with only your department's apparatus coming in, they shouldn't need to be told every specific thing to do. Especially on the response channel. That's where the ops channel should be used, but that would be another discussion.

[ENG27SQ]

Personally, if the IC had a portable/car radio on the response and one on ops and the officer of each unit USED ops as they should, there wouldnt be a problem. But everyones gotta hear themselves on the response channel...

[BIGDOG]

Some people have to walked through a incident. The fire service is only hard as you make it. I used to think people should have common sense when it comes to decision making.....boy was I wrong.

As for the ops channels, if the wind is not blowing over 5 MPH and you don't have a tractor trailer in front of you (joke) and the radio is on then maybe they will hear the orders. The problem is getting the officer to turn the radio on to listen for the order but instead they will ask over the R-1.

[canman]

I know the call(s) you were probably listening to and some times people should not sit in the officers seat if they aren't ready(trained) to be up there. kinda funny you posted this. we were trying to understand why all the direction over the radio for what seemed to be a very simple incident. i'm not busting any balls but some towns should have policies before the standing orders are even needed.

[papacheese]

In general I agree...personnel should not have to be told what to do for a routine call, with the emphasis on routine.

However, at the other end of the spectrum there are those who make it a hobby to use as few words as possible whenever they're on the radio, then wonder why the order was misunderstood.

The key (IMHO) is like anything else: balance.

I shouldn't need to tell anyone what to do for a routine "nothing showing" alarm system....but if it's work and I identify some specific task or location that I want the incoming crew to know about, it's paramount to explain it clearly and concisely so there's NO chance for misinterpretation....otherwise, things aren't going to get done the way I want them to.

OK, I will now officially admit I'm old and no doubt suffering from a terminal case of "radio ear", but trying to listen and UNDERSTAND transmissions on two different channels while filtering through the normal truck and conversational noise is damn near impossible for me...and I'd venture a guess it's difficult for most but a few gifted individuals. The more variables and obstacles we deal with, the more chances things will get screwed up. Seems to me that the best opportunity to make sure everyone gets on the same operational page is to transmit your initial orders over Response while the crew is still inside the truck with their headphones on (hopefully). Once outside, the Ops channel is used, but as Big Dog alluded, it's functionality is sometimes suspect.

[WebBoss]

I like these comments so far. Everyone has made some really good points.

Communication is key. However, most of us hear communication and think "Radios." That is just a small part of it. Communicating policies and strategic orders through out your department and your surrounding departments can be one of the best (and easiest) ways to streamline even the most serious of incidents.

It seems that our departments' more and more are forgeting the Keep It Simple Stupid concept. We have prefected making mountains out of mole hills, and for what? To allow everyone to hear that "Hey, we got a call and we're gonna make it sound bigger then your last one!" That's what it seems like. We all need to start taking the simplist way to handle things. Reduced responses, reduced chief responses, reduced radio chatter. It is possible to handle an assignment without dictating every step of the way. It is also possible to handle an assignment without dictating every step you make to central.

[gotwork]

I firmly believe in standing orders. However it would take some serious training and repetition. For example in our town we have two basic grids that are setup with apparatus responses that take the guess out of it and kind of coach the commander if needed.

E1 attack
E2 supply
T1 search and vent
E3 Wild card search/RIT/assist truck etc.
R1 Search or RIT whichever is open depending on arrival.

We teach this as the ground work for every structural run then adjust as needed. When we meet and train with Mutual Aid we work ini this fashion just to reinforce the concept. So far it has worked like a charm (knocking on my wooden skull right now). It all comes to down to pre incident preparation and communication.

[thelurker]

I heard a call for a building fire today, and I heard the chief give orders for the 1st arriving engine to "pack up, take the imager and the can to the basement and investigate". You are telling me in this day and age people still have to be reminded to "pack up" for a building fire??? WTF? You're kidding right?

[WebBoss]

thelurker said:

I heard a call for a building fire today, and I heard the chief give orders for the 1st arriving engine to "pack up, take the imager and the can to the basement and investigate". You are telling me in this day and age people still have to be reminded to "pack up" for a building fire??? WTF? You're kidding right?

Yes. In this day and age it is still that way some places. It's the same as having 4 engine for an LZ running hot. It's the same as not dispatching more then 2 engines for a house fire. It's the same as running 3 engines, a squrt, a rescue, and 2 pick up trucks for wires calls. It's the same as continuing the "Buddy Boxes" trend. It's the same as depending on tank water for a working house fire. It's the same as having a RIT full of 1 year firefighters... (the list can go on and on in this county)

Some things will just not fully change no matter how many people get hurt or worse. We're all just lucky right now. BUT... our luck around these parts is dwindling off. More little "oops's" have been happening. Companies are running more and more because we're surrounded by those who get out less and less. The glaring example... our fire death rate is already up this year.

I just hope everyone who does care about modern times is very good at keeping you and yours safe.

[fp43301(RET)]

from a fire police side. i agree we should not betold what to do . the ic will tell u what to do when u are on your way in on an truck. ie fire police 4318 block 206 and medford lakes rd as the accident is 1/8 mile away . not the other way around. never ask for orders over the radio, the fire police group supervisor( highest ranked) will go face to face with the ic and or operations at a large incident. in large incidents where you would have strike teams the highest ranked fire police officer capt or lt would be at the command post with the ic, running there incident with the help of the coords. and i have found out this is a great way to run incident....

[ENG27SQ]

thelurker said:

I heard a call for a building fire today, and I heard the chief give orders for the 1st arriving engine to "pack up, take the imager and the can to the basement and investigate". You are telling me in this day and age people still have to be reminded to "pack up" for a building fire??? WTF? You're kidding right?

Tell me that wasn't my own Chief who said that..I was at work when our building went out and don't know who was there..lol

[papacheese]

admin said:

thelurker said:

I heard a call for a building fire today, and I heard the chief give orders for the 1st arriving engine to "pack up, take the imager and the can to the basement and investigate". You are telling me in this day and age people still have to be reminded to "pack up" for a building fire??? WTF? You're kidding right?

Yes. In this day and age it is still that way some places. It's the same as having 4 engine for an LZ running hot. It's the same as not dispatching more then 2 engines for a house fire. It's the same as running 3 engines, a squrt, a rescue, and 2 pick up trucks for wires calls. It's the same as continuing the "Buddy Boxes" trend. It's the same as depending on tank water for a working house fire. It's the same as having a RIT full of 1 year firefighters... (the list can go on and on in this county)

Some things will just not fully change no matter how many people get hurt or worse. We're all just lucky right now. BUT... our luck around these parts is dwindling off. More little "oops's" have been happening. Companies are running more and more because we're surrounded by those who get out less and less. The glaring example... our fire death rate is already up this year.

I just hope everyone who does care about modern times is very good at keeping you and yours safe.

Boss, you couldn't be righter...in the past two years, Motown's been to places we never dreamed we'd ever get called to for either a cover or additional alarm. Changes can evolve so slowly that people often are unaware that a shift has taken place...who would have ever thought we'd be covering Pennsauken or assisting in Springfield? At the risk of being repetitive, we're trying to do too much with too little, and the transition from the "good ole days" way of doing things to being smarter and more professional will be a long and torturous one.

As far as Lurker's lament about packing up, I don't like it anymore than he does but have to concede that it's sometimes needed....unfortunately.

[shader101]

we have one standing order that seems to work, dont call and ask for orders , proceed in and standby if not given any by the ic, give the ic the benifit of the doubt, he knows your coming if he needs something specific he'll tell ya , if not you added to this great states polution problem and charged you batteries

[thelurker]

shader101 said:

we have one standing order that seems to work, dont call and ask for orders , proceed in and standby if not given any by the ic, give the ic the benifit of the doubt, he knows your coming if he needs something specific he'll tell ya , if not you added to this great states polution problem and charged you batteries

Amen, and it also keeps you from sounding like an ass on the radio. We have this policy in place in Cinnaminson also, although sometimes you will someone ask, usually we just sit on the truck until told otherwise.

[papacheese]

OK, not to be a schlub or anything, but a little helpful "Hi, I'm here!" prompt to a harried IC trying to do five things at once is not necessarily a bad thing either.....I can't tell you how many times I've seen/heard the dreaded "XXXX...go back and do (insert something appropriate here)", which is now equivilent to trying to stuff the poop back into the goose. Or (and I've been there on this one) have the harried IC forget you're dutifully standing by and instead order the engine that's still three miles away to stretch a back-up line.....in the words of the immortal Silver Throated Communicator: "WTF mates!"

Of course, IF everyone did as they were taught, none of this wouldn't happen...arriving apparatus would announce themselves, then take up Level 1 or 2 staging in a remote enough location that would allow them and the IC a bit of flexibility regarding route and position...in a perfect world. If the IC is on his/her game, they will monitor the apparatus situation and provide orders BEFORE they reach the dreaded "Point of No Return"

Having said that, do I advocate telling people to pack up, grab a TIC and irons? Absolutely not....

[shader101]

ok papa chief lol the hi i am here is covered with xx11 on location at x and y street (a 1/2 block or so away ),since we do 80% or more of our mutual aid with you & 313 i can truthfully say we are never left in the dark hanging

[thelurker]

I was at and incident one time, relatively big fire on the riverfront, we were 2nd arriving, reported on-location, and were given orders to find a hydrant and stand-by. The IC left us sit there until all of his trucks and the mutual aid arrived....eventually, we became the RIT for an exposure building...

[shader101]

LOL BUSTED