Laying in

[hp4l]

I have looked over the site and did not see this already posted so I thought I'd get everyone's thoughts. Should the first due engine lay in to a structure fire? All the time, some of the time, never? I had this discussion with another firefighter last weekend and he had a different opinion than I did. I heard him out though and figured I'd start this thread.

[voyager9]

As with most things, it depends. I'll make the decision based on initial report, or what I see on approach.

I know some people say "Always lay in" and I'm on the fence about that. On one hand it makes the decision easy. On the other, I see it very quickly being ignored after five or six false alarms.

[gotwork]

Smoke or fire on approach drop it in!!! Save the leg work later. It will also be beneficial to have good maps with hydrant locations so the lay can be made easier.

[wellingcountry]

I think it depends upon several things
First off what type of occupancy as well as the location of the structure. In tabernacle we have many homes that have long driveways in which we are lucky enough to get just one truck down the driveway. I think if you know you have a fire and it is this type of driveway they yes they should lay in. I just feel this way because it is a pain to first hand drag depending on the length and it is also hard to have another truck reverse lay out. Not saying that you can't but work smarter not harder. Now if the fire is located in a home that is close to or just off the street then you can always have another truck lay out. However if you can grab the hydrant then why not lay out and have the second in engine pick it up. Commercial structures and other high risk occupancies is about the same as homes that are close to the roadway there is usually enough room to have another truck lay out. But all and all I think that there is no set rule but it should be played on a case by case basis.
I think some things to think about would be:
1. Access to Location
2. Amount of fire
3. Location of closest water source
4. Access and Egress of other units in relationship to the water source your using versus having another unit lay in from another source from another direction/location.
5. Type of water source (tenders, Hydrants, Draft, etc.).

[JDub]

Most of the time our first due dropped the 5inch on the way in. I think if the report or you see something that screams lay in then honestly in my opinion don't lay in.

[WebBoss]

voyager9 said:

As with most things, it depends. I'll make the decision based on initial report, or what I see on approach.

I know some people say "Always lay in" and I'm on the fence about that. On one hand it makes the decision easy. On the other, I see it very quickly being ignored after five or six false alarms.

If it's ignored, and it's your procedure, then the persons who ignored it need to be delt with accordingly.

I am one of those who feels that we all should be dropping in for any structure fire type calls. In the same notion, I feel that at least the first handline should be stretched off all the time too. Better to be prepared then not. This will also help with your members learning how to pack hose back on.

The handline is the nozzleman's tool. Every firefighter is supposed to get off with a tool correct?

[papacheese]

I'm a definite MAYBE, mostly due to several (to me) significant factors:

1) Our engines carry 1000 gallons of water, a fair amount of water to start an initial attack, which in this day and age of rapid fire growth and spread, could have a very favorable impact on the event, provided it's applied quickly.

2) As welling pointed out, long driveways are a notable exception; while I could still go with my "1,000 gallon initial attack" idea, chances are better than good I'm going to run out before the supply lines are laid and charged...and quite frankly, that sucks.

3) Another exception would be a commercial or industrial occupancy; that 1,000 gallons on my engine ain't going to do diddly at those types of incidents.

4) A lot depends on the size-up....nothing beats an eyeball apprasial of the situation BEFORE committing to anything, thereby expanding your options.

[thelurker]

admin said:

voyager9 said:

The handline is the nozzleman's tool. Every firefighter is supposed to get off with a tool correct?

A PWC or Dry Chem in conjunction with a 4 foot NY Hook are also perfect as the nozzleman's tools. Based on your size up, sometimes we don't need to bring a Howitzer to a sling-shot fight. While I agree laying and packing are great practice, now you are taking the engine OOS, blocking traffic, and not using your manpower very efficiently if you do this at every "Structure Fire" call.Laying lines at every call for the structure is like putting All Co's In-Service every time you see smoke.

[papacheese]

Good points...I was thinking this morning of how many fires are put out with less than 1000 gallons of water....or as lurker suggests, 2 1/2 gallons. Probably a lot.

[rp42]

I'm a maybe as well. I would have to listen to the report, oder of smoke, I'd probably not drop 500 ft of 5 in. Homeowner stated their house is on fire I would. For the longer drive ways drop the hose at the street and go in. It may be a pain to repack the hose, but its good practice, and remember perfect practice prevents piss poor performance.

[hp4l]

Thanks for the input guys. Lots of good points. Back in a previous department, it seemed like we rarely laid in. We also usually had a tanker on our ass. In Cinn City, every "job" I have been on, we laid in with the first due engine. I guess the way I look at it is if it sounds like it has potential to be something, lay in. With manpower shortages all over the place, get yourself some water the quickest way possible. If there may be people trapped, I think I would go right to the scene and go with what my engine has. Next due lays in. This will save time and you should still have enough water on the engine to operate until help gets there. I was just very surprised that from talking to people before this post I heard a lot of always or never. No one seemed to say depends on the incident. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that felt that way.

[WebBoss]

hp4l said:

Thanks for the input guys. Lots of good points. Back in a previous department, it seemed like we rarely laid in. We also usually had a tanker on our ass. In Cinn City, every "job" I have been on, we laid in with the first due engine. I guess the way I look at it is if it sounds like it has potential to be something, lay in. With manpower shortages all over the place, get yourself some water the quickest way possible. If there may be people trapped, I think I would go right to the scene and go with what my engine has. Next due lays in. This will save time and you should still have enough water on the engine to operate until help gets there. I was just very surprised that from talking to people before this post I heard a lot of always or never. No one seemed to say depends on the incident. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that felt that way.

While I fully understand your point about having the water on board, at the same time I'm always thinking about the protection of my guys first. You could have people trapped on a moderate smoke showing incident and the first crew in goes right through the floor into a raging basement fire... 500, 750, and even a 1000 isn't going to get you very far. Another angle to think is that if the strategic thoughts shift and now your forced to operate with your deck pipe to darken down the fire... now you've just exhausted your water supply and in the time you're waiting for the next engine to drop YOU a supply, the fire's back at it's original intensity.

Just some food for thought.

AND... I'm not going to drop in on the "Odor of Smoke" or "Appliance" calls, but I will be erroring on the side of caution for anything that points in the direction of a fire in a house. 500' of 5" takes 10 minutes tops to put back on when you're practiced enough in it, just as a 200' crosslay can be back on in under 5 minutes. My rig is never out of service because of 1 handline and some supply hose... got another assignment??? I'll come back for my hose... I've got 700' of 5" left and 4 other handlines, more then enough to go around.

Again though, this is just how I look at things. Not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent... different strokes for different folks.

[shader101]

we lay in most times reverse lay sometimes the situation dictates, as far as laying in or pulline a line to pratice,na thats what drills are for, if you need pratice packing or laying line maybe you dont have enough drills?