County based fire department?

[Reverend]

"The only minor concern there would be for ISO rating.. my understanding is that one component of the rating is along the lines of "does your local FD have a ladder truck []y/[]n" with no room for "No, but my neighbor 1 mile away does". I could be wrong there. If true then a County Dept is really the only way to reorganize equipment w/out affecting the rating.

Maybe if we all just got Quints, and called the Squads, everyone would be happy?"


ISO used to use a home rule type approach, meaning your town had to provide engine, ladder, water supply,etc.. They do however now recognize mutual aid agreements, so a town that has a resource now dosnt loss credit if it no longer has that resource. As long as their is a nearby resource to fill the void and your mutual aid agreement and dispatch protocol up to date.

And by the way Quints are not the aswer just ask St Louis, they are abandoning the concept. Also it can kill traditional fire ground tactics if the members are not properly trained.

[papacheese]

Good discussion...and some really good points being made. Here's a few of my thoughts:

1) As I'm led to believe, ISO ratings are only really important for the really big "owners" in a jurisdiction, ie: schools and large scale industries. According to what I've been told, the average homeowner sees very little change in their premiums when a jursidiction improves it's rating.....ISO has pretty much lost credibilty over the past decade or so; Rev's point about them accepting mutual aid now is proof they're finally starting to get it.

2) While it would be nice to get together and do many of the things needed without consolidation or a county system, I simply don't see that coming. Inertia and egos require far more pressure to actually change, witness OSHA and NFPA. a tradition of two hundred and fifty years of independence is hard (but not impossible) to overcome. What I worry about most is that it will take a catastrophic event to occur before people open their eyes.

3) Mirrors: I wholeheartedly concur with your thoughts regarding duty crews - unless compelled, they're never going to be reliable enough to hang your hat on. Some departments have had good luck staffing them on a regular basis, while other's struggle...this inconsistency means there will always be gaps in service.

4) I realize I'm stating the obvious here, but regardless of the other issues, and there's a bunch of them - the core one remains staffing and response time. Before anything can happen, everyone would have to agree upon a standard, then address it in whatever manner works best. A dispatch will consist of a minimum of engine company of XX, a truck company of XX (whatever number is agreed upon). It will be located within XX miles and respond within XX minutes. Fill in the "XX's" and the rest will begin to fall into place.

4) One thing to keep in mind whenever you're looking at a county model; for the most part, many of them exist where there were too few or widely scattered departments (such as in the South) without the long tradition of the more densely populated Northeast. The Midwest pioneered the "pay per call" department concept that tended to even out their service and staffing levels.

[papacheese]

Dec 18, 2008 5:54:04 GMT -5 papacheese said:

Good discussion...and some really good points being made. Here's a few of my thoughts:

1) As I'm led to believe, ISO ratings are only really important for the really big "owners" in a jurisdiction, ie: schools and large scale industries. According to what I've been told, the average homeowner sees very little change in their premiums when a jursidiction improves it's rating.....ISO has pretty much lost credibilty over the past decade or so; Rev's point about them accepting mutual aid now is proof they're finally starting to get it.

2) While it would be nice to get together and do many of the things needed without consolidation or a county system, I simply don't see that coming. Inertia and egos require far more pressure to actually change, witness OSHA and NFPA. a tradition of two hundred and fifty years of independence is hard (but not impossible) to overcome. What I worry about most is that it will take a catastrophic event to occur before people open their eyes.

3) Mirrors: I wholeheartedly concur with your thoughts regarding duty crews - unless compelled, they're never going to be reliable enough to hang your hat on. Some departments have had good luck staffing them on a regular basis, while other's struggle...this inconsistency means there will always be gaps in service.

4) I realize I'm stating the obvious here, but regardless of the other issues, and there's a bunch of them - the core one remains staffing and response time. Before anything can happen, everyone would have to agree upon a standard, then address it in whatever manner works best. A dispatch will consist of a minimum of engine company of XX, a truck company of XX (whatever number is agreed upon). It will be located within XX miles and respond within XX minutes. Fill in the "XX's" and the rest will begin to fall into place.

4) One thing to keep in mind whenever you're looking at a county model; for the most part, many of them exist where there were too few or widely scattered departments (such as in the South) without the long tradition of the more densely populated Northeast. The Midwest pioneered the "pay per call" department concept that tended to even out their service and staffing levels.

The issues we face are being compounded even more by the time constraints of modern life and now, economic pressure. Maybe the answer is to have the county fund a comprehensive pay per call program, tailored to address the issues we are and will continue to encounter. I view a "Pay for Call" or "Pay for Training" program as being no different than the National Guard...an essential service being provided by dedicated individuals who are fairly compensated for the time and expertise they provide.

[voyager9]

Dec 18, 2008 5:54:04 GMT -5 papacheese said:

3) Mirrors: I wholeheartedly concur with your thoughts regarding duty crews - unless compelled, they're never going to be reliable enough to hang your hat on. Some departments have had good luck staffing them on a regular basis, while other's struggle...this inconsistency means there will always be gaps in service.

I'm a wholehearted proponent of the duty crew system. We have a pretty successful one in MTL. I wasn't around when it was first implemented, but I believe a lot of the problems with it initially were cultural.. Once it was in place and operating the opinions and attitudes began to change.

I think one key aspect is there is a certain call volume that has to be exceeded before a duty crew program is successful. Obviously the volume has to be high enough for it to make sense to the department ("The call volume is too high and people aren't coming back for everything"). It also has to make sense to the individual ("If I'm going to be at the station, I want to run calls, not sit there").
Good training and camaraderie are also big factors and advantages to the duty crew.

[fp43301(RET)]

this is a topic i can chime in on as i live outside roanoke va in vinton. Vinton in roanoke county have a 6a-6p carrear staff fire and ems they are fire /medics. 5 total plus an officer. they are responsible for mannig the WAGON and a medic truck(ambulance)r the 2 for the mediic and 3 ff and the officer for the wagon. that is true throughout the county of roanoke. a Normal Dwelling dipatch is Company 2 , Ladder 2( vol) Co 12, Co 6 , Ladder 5, Rescue 2( Carrear ) add vol if working fire. Battalian 1(cty) , ems 2 (cty) after6p-6a its vollys . Engine 2(vol) and RESCUE 2(vollys) becomes a medic if medic jumps on for als job. if an accident happens is rescue 2, SQUAD 2( Rescue truck) wagon 2,medic 2......

now in bedford county its all volly minus a 6a- 6p medic .i am involved with stewartsville vol fire co as a probie ff. They have a wagon, bruch truck, HEAVY RESCUE, TANKER, MANPOWER, and command car. www.sc13fd.com


anyways what is funny is a quint in roanoke city is called an engine.

The issue down here is that there is alot more arsons, and fires in the all voly areas and alot go unfounded and in vinton and roanoke co its alot easier to catch a house earlier. I think a paid 6a-6p is a great way to start fo a county wide issue in burlington. to be cost efficent take shamong , southampton, tabernacle and hampton lakes( 5 paid guys) 2 paid ems. Pemberton area( 5 paid ) 4 Ems paid. medford medford lakes( 5 paid) 4 paid ems) lumberton Mt holly, easthampton, hainsport( 8 paid ff 4(pipeman) 4 truckies), paid ems) chatsworth lower bank green bank nldc, 5 ff , add another ambulnce to nldc fleet for area wide)

the ff can also be fire inspecors so the towns make money as well as it would improve the turnout and protection .

an alarm system : STA 431 DUTY CREW for paid
Dwelling TF 4310( paid and volly.

Rotation of engines is key as well


All in all it is a great idea

my turnouts will say
BC F R meaning Bedford County Fire and rescue
under that will say SCVFC - Stewartsville chamblersburg vol fire co

smae could be done for the paid

BURLCOFIRE

SHAMONG


dean d davison

[breakingsomemirror]

Dec 18, 2008 11:31:30 GMT -5 voyager9 said:

Dec 18, 2008 5:54:04 GMT -5 papacheese said:

3) Mirrors: I wholeheartedly concur with your thoughts regarding duty crews - unless compelled, they're never going to be reliable enough to hang your hat on. Some departments have had good luck staffing them on a regular basis, while other's struggle...this inconsistency means there will always be gaps in service.

I'm a wholehearted proponent of the duty crew system. We have a pretty successful one in MTL. I wasn't around when it was first implemented, but I believe a lot of the problems with it initially were cultural.. Once it was in place and operating the opinions and attitudes began to change.

I think one key aspect is there is a certain call volume that has to be exceeded before a duty crew program is successful. Obviously the volume has to be high enough for it to make sense to the department ("The call volume is too high and people aren't coming back for everything"). It also has to make sense to the individual ("If I'm going to be at the station, I want to run calls, not sit there").
Good training and camaraderie are also big factors and advantages to the duty crew.

While I can't comment on how it is now, I can comment on how it was created, as I was part of creating it back in the day. (Actually, there were two programs, one for "open enrollment" or members from outside the department who slept from 6 p - 6 a and the other for the overnights with people responding from home.)

You're right, it was a challenge in the beginning but it did work. There was a lot of research and thought put into the "open enrollment" duty crew program and if it's still operating over 10 years after it was created, then I'm guessing it was a success.

The problem is exactly what you said it will be: call volume. One of the reasons the MLFD program worked was because we had a lot of calls and people wanted to come work a duty crew there. People wanted the experience and training and we gave it to them. In return, they helped MLFD provide the service to the people.

The problem I see with a county wide duty crew system is what happens when we have to staff a piece in a smaller, less volume station? I tell you what's going to happen, people's interest is going to fall off REAL quick. However, if someone really wants to be a part of the system (meaning county wide) and they are there for the right reasons, then they will do it. I'll tell you now that those people will be few and far between.

Also, under what I envision happening, in theory, the "busy" towns that will hold people's interest (MLFD, EFR, da 'Boro) probably won't be getting duty crews because they already have career staff with dedicated contracts. In theory, the county wouldn't have to place apparatus there because it's already covered. Now, if someone were proposing that the county take over all of the career contracts from each town and combine them into one, well, that's another story. It's also a can of worms that I would NOT want to be opening!

As for apparatus, it is true that they all eventually go away. However, in the meantime, they all need maintenance, fuel, insurance, etc.. If you've ever done a fire department budget you know, it adds up real quick! This is especially true in an economy like today.

I still believe we have way too much equipment and duplication of services in many areas of the county. In my opinion, if you figure out a way to improve staffing (either by volunteer duty crews or career staff), then you can begin to reduce the unnecessary vehicle overload, which in turn will help reduce overall costs and improve efficiency.

[papacheese]

I'm sure someone will correct me if this is a false assumption, but duty crews work best in the long term when they are required as opposed to being optional....if I'm not mistaken several departments require their members to serve on a minimum number of duty crews in order to maintain their membership status.

I go back and forth in my mind as to whether they are the ultimate answer; for many members who are trying to juggle educational, career and/or family obligations, being able to schedule station time has to be a good thing...in a day and age of two income families, this trend (in my mind) is only going to continue, not go away....do we address it with duty crews? If so, should we then take the next logical step and requrie ALL members to do duty crews, that way the work load is evenly distributed among the members? On the opposite side, many don't want to be limited or don't want/need to do duty crews; they rightly see it as a limitation, not an advantage.

I guess it all comes down to your membership demographics...which system satisfies the needs of most of the members?

[voyager9]

Dec 19, 2008 11:06:58 GMT -5 papacheese said:

I go back and forth in my mind as to whether they are the ultimate answer; for many members who are trying to juggle educational, career and/or family obligations, being able to schedule station time has to be a good thing...in a day and age of two income families, this trend (in my mind) is only going to continue, not go away....do we address it with duty crews? If so, should we then take the next logical step and requrie ALL members to do duty crews, that way the work load is evenly distributed among the members? On the opposite side, many don't want to be limited or don't want/need to do duty crews; they rightly see it as a limitation, not an advantage.

MLFD requires members to attend a certain amount of duty crews in order to remain active.. Technically it's 2 weeknight (12 hrs) and 1 Saturday (4 hrs) a month. Most people do more weeknights (4/month) and fewer Saturdays.. I think this is mainly because the Saturday DC's are relatively new so we're still making the cultural shift. It's getting better but we're still making the calls the week-of reminding people.

Mirrors: Open Enrollment is still going. Not as many people anymore, but it's still active and pretty effective.

I agree with Cheese that the biggest advantage of a duty crew program, to the individual, is the ability to schedule and work around the time you'll be at the station. If I've got duty crew on Monday, then I know where I'll be on Monday.. and I know where I won't (have to) be on Tuesday.. Friday. Again I think it comes down to call volume as to whether people see this as a big advantage or not. Are there enough calls to make it worth sitting at the station.. and also, are there enough calls to make it worth knowing SOMEONE ELSE is at the station. ("It was worth it for me to sit at the station on Monday, because I didn't have to go to those 8 A/S calls on Tue/Wed").

[shader101]

nice idea, in theroy, good luck, just send a flyer out when you all propse it at the next county chiefs meeting, better bring all the medic's and aed's you can muster, if and when we sell them , next on to the county freeloaders, their political types so they will want to know whats in it for them 1st. will it help me get reelected ect. Then i want to see who REALLY HAS BALLS, who among you will walk up to any riverfront chief and tell him or her their town has way too much equipment, now that i would really like to see, when i wake up in disneyland i'll know we have a county controlled FD system.
merry christmas
Shader

[Reverend]

Nice Rant Shader, You speak like you dont have unwarranted or an abundance of equipment and pride in your FD. Come on man, every department fits in to your Riverfront Chiefs Theory. Were all "type A" personalities thats why were attracted to the business in the first place. The problem is the over abunance of imposters and non-believers, They are type "A-Hole" personalities.

Dec 19, 2008 13:04:38 GMT -5 shader101 said:

nice idea, in theroy, good luck, just send a flyer out when you all propse it at the next county chiefs meeting, better bring all the medic's and aed's you can muster, if and when we sell them , next on to the county freeloaders, their political types so they will want to know whats in it for them 1st. will it help me get reelected ect. Then i want to see who REALLY HAS BALLS, who among you will walk up to any riverfront chief and tell him or her their town has way too much equipment, now that i would really like to see, when i wake up in disneyland i'll know we have a county controlled FD system.
merry christmas
Shader

[papacheese]

At times there are a few (but not many) benefits to getting older....provided the memory banks are still functioning, it's possible to make a reasonably accurate comparison between Then and Now and perhaps put things in another perspective.

THEN: a typical SFD fire did not warrant mutual aid...in fact, it was considered a stain on the department's reputation to call for help.

NOW: a typical SFD fire gets you two to three jusridictions worth of response - at a minimum.

THEN: when you called for help, you needed apparatus

NOW: when you call for help, you need firefighters

THEN: if you were called, it was for the next town over

NOW: if you're called, you could be traveling two to three towns over.

THEN: Dispatching resources was, at best, a crapshoot

NOW: There's a whole lot more structure than there ever used to be.

THEN: You never spoke to the officers of the other company, much less another department. They did things their way, and we did things ours.

NOW: There's a hellava LOT of dialogue going on - some iffy, most outstanding - between firefighters, officers, and chiefs. Ideas are being exchanged and considered that would have been friggin unthinkable years ago...and that's not only a good thing, but an integral part of the process for changing things.

Granted, things like RIT make a big difference in the number of companies being dispatched, but every so often I listen to F1 and still marvel at the number of stations being dispatched...this is no slight mind you, but just an observation.

I guess my point is this: in many subtle ways we have become a county department, if not formally, then at least informally. While there still is some sandboxing going on, it's in no way shape or form anything like it was twenty short years ago. Hopefully, it'll be even better five years from now, especially since communications channels such as this forum get everyone thinking and interacting - another "plus" for eventual change. Our county is fortunate to have a significant number of dedicated leaders who like to think outside the proverbial box - that's one of the chief reasons why Burlco is considered one of the premier counties for establishing guidelines and being ahead of the curve (if you think things are bad here, take a look up north - talk about fractured!).

Bottom Line: Keep up the chatter, interaction, questioning, thinking, and proposing.... like water trickling on a rock, the opposition will eventually be worn down.

[shader101]

wasn't my river front theroy, i dont care what you all have or don't have Rev, what you dont have is a radio call away from being delivered. i love iso they will give you points for a engine that never gets out a ladder thats the same ect, amazing how on a call we get out one engine and a ladder then the chief calls all hands and bam nothing left in the station its all on the road, cheeze you hit the nail on the head there as usual