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Post by papacheese on Dec 9, 2008 16:49:03 GMT -5
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Post by smthborenzzle on Dec 9, 2008 16:54:43 GMT -5
You mean besides climbing into a well involved room? I was thinking maybe instead of everyone focusing on getting ladders up and going in the window somebody could grab a handline? Maybe help out the conditions for your search?? I dont know maybe its just me lol.
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Post by FirstDue312 on Dec 9, 2008 17:31:20 GMT -5
Just remember, we don't know the circumstance. What may look "stupid" or "$*&^ing idiotic" is just that. The appearance from an outsiders perspective. Not saying its right, but we only have 1/100 of the information that those brothers did.
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Post by firefighter29 on Dec 9, 2008 18:55:54 GMT -5
You mean besides climbing into a well involved room? I was thinking maybe instead of everyone focusing on getting ladders up and going in the window somebody could grab a hand line? Maybe help out the conditions for your search?? I don't know maybe its just me lol. I agree what you are saying but I did also notice on the left hand corner flames where actually rolling a sign that it wouldn't be safe to enter the dwelling what so ever. There is a tall tell sign of a flash over even before the window was even smashed. |
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ENG27SQ
Division Supervisor 
MS Paint Guru
Posts: 653
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Post by ENG27SQ on Dec 10, 2008 10:13:09 GMT -5
Uh...why no hand line stretched? Why was there only 1 FIREFIGHTER coming out? 2 in 2 out anyone? Maybe that was his 2nd guy going up the ladder but he's obviously way too far behind because his partner looked to be in a little deep by the time he got to the window and the room flashed. |
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Post by papacheese on Dec 10, 2008 11:39:37 GMT -5
Just remember, we don't know the circumstance. What may look "stupid" or "$*&^ing idiotic" is just that. The appearance from an outsiders perspective. Not saying its right, but we only have 1/100 of the information that those brothers did. While I agree with your observation in principle Jon, it's too easy and something of a cop-out to dismiss something simply because we weren't there. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the actions shown in the segment are a true representation of what occured. I'll take the scneario one step further: I can easily believe that this kind of action is taking place on a regular basis somewhere out there. Let's look at it another way: giving everyone a HUGE benefit of the doubt, presume those firefighters were told that there was someone in that bedroom - not an unreasonable situation in the least. Now presume that upon reaching the window, the first firefighter sees a victim inside the room....more than likely far enough away to require climbing in, hence the resulting action he/she takes. Bearing all that in mind, it still doesn't explain the fact that (as firefighter29 pointed out), the room is in the process of flashing before the firefighter reaches the top AND grows in intensity to the point that it becomes obvious. Based on those circumstances alone, is this a rescue or a recovery? If you were to answer "rescue", I would then respectively disagree. If you were to say "recovery", then I would agree but then ask why you would risk your life for an obviously dead person? As an instructor and resident Safety Nazi, the questions that go through my head include: 1) Was the first firefighter so "target locked" that he/she ignored the obvious? 2) Was there any supervision going on? 3) Was it simply that both firefighters didn't recognize the situation's hazard? Here's the real crux of the problem as I see it: fire service culture often overwhelms common sense and training. Safe and snug in our thousand dollar PPE, we hardly realize or even appreciate how searing hot that room was even before the flashover occured, massively reducing the chance of life. IMHO, the combination of being fooled by the TTP qualities of our gear and a wholesale buying into the theory that we must sacrifice life and limb regardless of the circumstances are the two chief culprits here. |
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box 80
Forum Candidate
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Post by box 80 on Dec 10, 2008 12:55:09 GMT -5
This Video was on Vententersearch.com
There is a pretty good explination from the Captain that was in the video. It is in the comments section on the 22nd, under the movie.
steve
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BIGDOG
Forum Crew Member
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Post by BIGDOG on Dec 10, 2008 14:20:16 GMT -5
Like box 80 said...the captain gave a written statement to the events that took place that morning. When I first saw the video without reading the statement I was like " what a ass", but after reading what he wrote I was like " maybe If I was in his shoes and the reports that were given then ya". Judgemental calls, we all done that before.
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Post by wagonpipe on Dec 10, 2008 16:05:51 GMT -5
and this is what he had to say......
rick van sant November 22nd, 2008 1:26 am
well, here goes my first website post ever,but when my friends said my 15 minutes was happening, i had to look.
I’m the guy in the video, and against my better judgement, i feel the need to set this thing straight.
First off, i’m a captain in indianapolis, and have 23 years in the busiest companies in the city. I’ve been to a couple of fires.
Because you weren’t there, i would tell you to watch the video again after i explain things, and maybe you’ll think differently.
This was a 4:00 am fire dispatched as entrapment, with excitement in the dispatchers voice. We were the first ladder company on the scene, and we were met with cars in the driveway, and neighbors screaming that there was a woman in that room.
Because of the involvement in the rest of the house, VES was going to be the only option on this one.
When we vent the window with the ladder, it looks like the room is burning, but the flames you see are coming from the hallway, and entering through the top of the bedroom doorway. Watch it again and you’ll see the fire keeps rolling in and across the ceiling.
When i get to the window sill, the queen-sized bed is directly against the window wall, so there is no way to “check the floor” like the textbook geeks gigged me for not doing. Notice that you continue to see my feet going in, because i’m on the bed.
Believe me, in the beginning, this was a tenable room both for me and for any victim that would have been in there. How else could i have been on the bed, 3 feet above the floor, calmly entering. Trust me when i say that i know what hot is, and this was no hotter than any other fire i’ve been in.
My goal was to get to the door and close it, just like VES is supposed to be done. We do it successfully all the time.
When i reached the other side of the bed, i dropped to the floor and began trying to close the door. Unfortunately, due to debris on the floor, the door would not close.
Conditions were still quite tenable at this point, but i knew with the amount of fire entering at the upper level, and smoke conditions changing, things were going to go south fast. As stated earlier, i’ve been doing this for 23 years, and i know fire behavior.
I kept my eyes on my exit point, and finished my search, including the closet, which had no doors on it. Just as i was a few feet from the window, the room lit off, and the rest is history, and fodder for all the self-proclaimed experts.
It’s hard for me to imagine that firefighters who weren’t there can find so much fault with a firefighter who did exactly what we’re supposed to do. For you textbook geeks, that means risking a lot to save a savable life. Like i said earlier, when i first made this room, it was NOT on fire like the video makes it look. I’ll give you this much; once the flashover occurred, no civilian could have survived, but if she would have been in there, maybe, just maybe i could have gotten her out before it happened.
I have to wonder what you would be saying if the video showed me just staying at the top of the ladder, never entering like many of you suggested, and later we found her corpse lying on the other side of the bed. Instead of calling me an idiot, you’d call me a coward. I’ll take idiot any time!
To “Dave” from my department who said he’d guess that i would probably look back now and say it wasn’t the smartest thing to do, you’re absolutely right. It was the ONLY thing to do. And if i’m faced with that exact same situation a hundred more times, i’ll be in that window every time, because i’m a fireman.
And if anyone wonders why i was aware of my surroundings at all times, why i was able to recognize when flashover was imminent, and why i pulled off a head-first ladder slide without a hitch….TRAINING!
To the guy who said i had no facepiece on..you’re freakin’ joking right? What you see dangling is my hand-lantern. Do you carry one?
And to the guy who says i have no tool, look at the axe handle sticking out of my SCBA belt. It’s not in my hand, because when i do a search, i know when i’m touching a body with my hand. When i hit it with a tool, it’s anyone’s guess what i’m touching. But i ALWAYS have a tool.
In closing, i would only suggest that when you watch a video from now on, remember that you weren’t there.
And if you were faced with the same situation, with the exact same conditions i was faced with, if you wouldn’t have done the same thing, then i’m glad you’re not on my job.
stay safe brothers
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1900
Forum Captain
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Post by 1900 on Dec 10, 2008 22:16:18 GMT -5
Uh...why no hand line stretched? Why was there only 1 FIREFIGHTER coming out? 2 in 2 out anyone? Maybe that was his 2nd guy going up the ladder but he's obviously way too far behind because his partner looked to be in a little deep by the time he got to the window and the room flashed. Just a couple things i was going to write prior to reading the Captain statement... Keith to answer your questions in my opinion... When you got to get in and perform a search or try and make a grab you have to do it as quick and safe as possible. The intent and purpose of VES is not to bring a handline. Also if companies are getting the line in place its a judgement call whether to go ahead of the line to do the search or not. And we can argue operating without a handline or not and there will never be a right answer...Companies do it all the time for real and every once in a while they get caught...on the other hand we have guys on the handline getting caught as well...so even when everything goes right something can go wrong. Why only one guy coming out. If Im going in to make a grab I dont have time to wait on the other guy that may have or may not have brought his A game...this is the call we all wait for...and with victims trapped 2 in 2 out goes out the window and those rules do not apply. As for the second guy on the ladder...again I dont have time to wait for the guy that didnt bring his A game... Now after reading the statement...right on bro...this aint the girl scouts ladies and gentlemen sometimes we have to do dangerous things. yes the video looked bad but just take a peek at the gallery section of firefighterclosecalls.com and see how many stupid #$%ing things are being done on a daily basis with no chance of life safety invovled. Soapbox for a second...how many people did you see riding on top of fire truck in wildwood? And how many of us will have santa riding on top of the fire truck this month??? Yet we judge videos like this. ok im done. Something else that has been buggin me for a while and something that i will never understand...(and I say this from being on both sides)...Why is it when a cop is seen in a video or picture doing something stupid or wrong, he is repremanded, fired, arrested, charged, jailed and on and on...yet how many videos and pictures do we have of firefighers doing stupid $hit and nothing gets done. Id bet most of those firefighers dont even get repremanded at the department level? |
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1900
Forum Captain
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Post by 1900 on Dec 10, 2008 22:20:01 GMT -5
STATEMENT FROM THE CAPTAIN: And if anyone wonders why i was aware of my surroundings at all times, why i was able to recognize when flashover was imminent, and why i pulled off a head-first ladder slide without a hitch….TRAINING!
Hmmmm....boy I sure wish we had a place to practice ladder bailouts...oh wait there unsafe thats right...better not do them!
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JDub
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Firefighter
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Post by JDub on Dec 11, 2008 5:30:24 GMT -5
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Post by papacheese on Dec 11, 2008 6:58:22 GMT -5
Thanks wagonpipe for posting the Captain's version...not knowing the source of the video, I didn't have the corresponding point of view to judge things by....that's kinda why I asked the way I did, then prematurely pulled the trigger.
Based on his comments, I did as he asked: I read the explanation, looked at the video again, then asked the question: did he take a reasonable risk for a reasonable gain? I would have to offer a conditional "yes". Obviously the Captain has the training, experience, and yes, cajones to pull off this very difficult and demanding technique. I commend his professionalism and abilities.....
We teach VES in my department, but always with the caveat that it should only be done by experienced, well trained firefighters - this is most definitely not something a firefighter with three years in and maybe two working jobs under his belt can be expected to pull off without a lot of luck.
Bottom Line: I was wrong to jump the gun and rush to judgment...as Jon (firstdue312) wisely pointed out in his earlier posting, I should have waited for the rest of the information to filter through. I'm also very happy to know that the Captain made it out...
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Post by WebBoss on Dec 11, 2008 8:56:42 GMT -5
We teach VES in my department, but always with the caveat that it should only be done by experienced, well trained firefighters - this is most definitely not something a firefighter with three years in and maybe two working jobs under his belt can be expected to pull off without a lot of luck. Chief... To slightly disagree with you here... and of course this is my own opinion... this is why we need to train as we would play. If I'm stuck in my second floor bedroom and the only way to get me out is by throwing a ladder and performing VES to find and rescue me, then I don't really care if it's a truck full of 20year vets or a truck with 3 fresh out of fire school kids. Our people need to be 100% trained to do simple techniques like this at the drop of a dime. My first victim was found by doing VES - honestly, it's not that hard, it just takes good knowledge and being trained to recognize what's going on around you. While I agree it's not the safest of tactics, it's one of the most effecient and practical. |
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gotwork
Special Operations Command
Doin' It Our Way
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Post by gotwork on Dec 11, 2008 16:35:43 GMT -5
Now with seeing the Captain's version. Job well done sir. This will always be a double edged sword. Companies should practice this technique more often. More times than not the only chance a victim has is with a quick window grab. Searching the structure from door to victim will take to long, also remember once found you need time to get them out. The technique has built in protection. Vent the window, enter the room, close the door, search and get out, one room at a time. It must also be coordinated. Often it is better served to send the first firefighter in for a quick search while the second tops the ladder for a landmark, safety member, and victim catcher. This is a prime example of taking the information presented and making the best decision YOU feel is possible based on expereince and training. Even the newest firefighter may be called upon to VES for a grab. Teach everyone, everything, every chance you get. Our job is dangerous, even the best attempts at safety can be thwarted by deficiencies out of our control. Train hard, train often, and retrain continuously. Man I love this job!!!!
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Post by papacheese on Dec 12, 2008 7:43:20 GMT -5
As the video - and my own misreading of it illustrates, there is far more to VES (IMHO) than merely going through the practical steps - things you cannot accurately simulate and reinforce, except through examples and discussion/information interchange like this.
Should everyone know how to do VES? Absolutely - no disagreement there.
Is it physically difficult? Not for a reasonably fit firefighter.
The unknown quality is experiece/judgment. Trust me, I've seen firefighters (as we all have) methodically go through the technique that they've been taught while not once stopping to check and see if it's working or to ascertain if something has changed. Like football players, they are repeating the actions they need to do to accomplish a task. Not everyone mind you, but a fairly significant number.
As you might suspect, I gave this matter a great deal of thought yesterday...trying to reconcile the differences between too little and too much risk versus gain. In discussing the video with another person, they pointed out that IF there had been a victim in that room, the chances of survival were rapidly diminishing, if not nonexistent. That's conjecture folks, but something that shouldn't just be dimissed outright without some consideration.
I think I found the key last evening during our training session, which was a review of the Loudon County near-miss. As you all have read me repeat ad nauseam in this forum, with all the factors we have to contend with (increased fire loading, crappy construction, reduced staffing, lengthened response times), today's version of Firefighting 101 requires both balls AND brains...not just the first as it did years ago. We have to think and act, not just do things because someone else did or it worked before. Todays' firefighter (as opposed to m y version, thirty years ago), needs to have substantial knowledge and appreciation of many factors that will directly impact their actions. We can teach, assess, and practice the physical part....but what about the thinking aspect?
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
Posts: 84
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Post by Reverend on Dec 12, 2008 9:27:41 GMT -5
Keith, VES operations (When Warranted) are a one man entry. The other Firefighter would normally remain outside ready to assist and also monitor conditions. The standard 2 in 2 out rule also does generally not apply when their are multiple companies operating on the fire ground and vivims trapped. Your Safety Team(Two Out) would generally be in the form of RIC at this point. Uh...why no hand line stretched? Why was there only 1 FIREFIGHTER coming out? 2 in 2 out anyone? Maybe that was his 2nd guy going up the ladder but he's obviously way too far behind because his partner looked to be in a little deep by the time he got to the window and the room flashed. |
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Reverend
Forum Lieutenant
"Well done is better than well said" BF
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Post by Reverend on Dec 12, 2008 9:46:16 GMT -5
Train hard, train often, and retrain continuously. Man I love this job!!!!
Wylie, me and you are going to make a class titled with your quote. Then we are taking it throughout the County to all the Sh*t talkin imposter Fire Departments. The Fire Service in this county needs a kick in the butt.
This has been a very constructive post looking at both sides and many different views. Excellent work boys.
Hell Yeh, I LOVE THIS JOB
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Post by breakingsomemirror on Dec 12, 2008 12:13:03 GMT -5
Wow, really good discussion! Glad to see it, the board went too quiet for a few weeks.
I myself am torn as well but I guess I tend to lean towards papacheese's thoughts. I've rewatched the video and read his words and still can't get over the fact that knowing the window was just vented prior to his arrival and the door was open, how really tenable was it? I mean, this obviously wasn't a pot of meat on the stove. This was an advanced fire. The guy says it was tenable and I guess being I wasn't there, I have to take his word for it. I would just think that an advanced fire with an open bedroom door would have pumped a lot of heat and smoke into that room. Survivability of any occupants seems to be slim to none.
I'm NOT trying to bash the guy. He made a hell of a move. Just trying to play Devil's Advocate, I guess.
I also want to make a point about the whole training/experience thing. I think it's a controversial point that always stirs a lot of debate between the younger and older members. Here's my thought. Yes, training is very important and we should be training every week or every day, if possible. However, all the training in the world can't make up for experience.
I'm not trying to rehash PC's point but I'm just trying to figure this out in my head. For example, I've done a lot of coaching over the years, mostly in baseball and softball. Now, I can teach almost anyone to hit a ball. I've seen some of the best hitters stand there and practice hitting balls for hours, reaching honing their skills. However, I've also seen some of these great hitters with lots of practice not be able to hit in the big spot. Is it because of a lack of knowledge or training? Absolutely not! Mostly, it's because they don't have the actual "game time" experience. They know how to do it. Actually doing it, especially in a high pressure situation, is another thing.
I think this also can apply to the fire service. I've taught a lot training over the years, from the basics of firefighting to more advanced skills. Everybody, no matter what level, get's taught the same things and gets the same opportunity to train and practice them. Still, when the time comes and the s*%t's hitting the fan, I know that when I'm sitting in the officer's seat and turn around, I really want to see certain guys behind me. There are just some guys who can handle the pressure and can be the "go to" people, usually because they have the training AND the experience to do the job.
OK, a little off topic and on a tangent but I was just trying to make a point. I guess there are certain things, like VES, that I think everybody should know but in the real world, some people are better able to perform than others.
Whatever your thoughts are on this, I'm just glad we're all discussing it and making each other thing. Train to live another day and share your experiences with others.
Stay safe.
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Post by papacheese on Dec 12, 2008 13:49:23 GMT -5
Like mirrors, I really do appreciate the discourse happening here; nothing's worse than closing off your mind to other thoughts and perspectives, regardless of whether you accept them or not. In re-reading the Captain's description of the incident, I would say that he handled the whole thing in what I would term an "incremental" fashion... he was thinking AND acting at the same time.....assessing, reacting, re-assessing, reacting.....to me, that's the name of the game and a commendable virtue.
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