2in 2 out / whats your department policy

[thecutman]

Just want to see what some other departments are doing. Most people know my take, 4 is enough. Many departments have a different take on this. Some say that the driver doesn't count. Some say that command doesn't count, NFPA has their take. What are you doing at your department? Just wanted to get some input. This is a good read if interested:

www.iaff.org/hs/PDF/2in2out.pdf

[WebBoss]

Dec 7, 2008 11:27:46 GMT -5 thecutman said:

Just want to see what some other departments are doing. Most people know my take, 4 is enough. Many departments have a different take on this. Some say that the driver doesn't count. Some say that command doesn't count, NFPA has their take. What are you doing at your department? Just wanted to get some input. This is a good read if interested:

www.iaff.org/hs/PDF/2in2out.pdf

To me it's a fine line and falls into the risk vs. benefit catagory.

If I pull up with 4, and it's faily obvious that it's a room off or matress on a second floor, then we're going in to knock it real quick. 4 guys can quickly knock a room and contents fire without putting themselves in any extra danger. To me, the risk vs. benefit is low enough to do this since I would like to see us save the house. This is even more paramount in our town's "Townhouses" and codos.

Now... pulling up with 4 and it's a whole second floor off, well that's a different story to me. Once the fire exceeds a room and todays structures, we might as well write off the whole floor, because that's what the insurance company is going to do.

I know it's a technicality in the rules, but it states "IDLH" enviroment. It depends on how close you can get without committing yourself to the IDLH area. Can we hit it from just inside the front door? Can we get it from the stairs without putting ourselves in extra risk? Can we easily VEE (Vent Enter Extinguish) without putting ourselves in extra risk? It all depends.

I strongly think this is one of those areas where we have over-governed our firefighters. Teach the law, but we don't need policies to replace proper judgement.

I hope I'm making this clear. I have difficulty getting my thoughts into clear words sometimes.

[papacheese]

My sentiments probably mirror most of the fire service...risk versus benefit, conditions on arrival, etc. The factors are many and varied, yet the law...which is OSHA, not NFPA, is fairly unambiguious. Two In Two Out is not a "suggestion", a "recommendation", or even a "standard", but a law, which is a horse of an entirely different color unfortunately.

The firefighter in me says: a reasonable person knows how to conduct a risk versus benefit analysis and can make the right decision, while the ISO in me says: the very reason we even have this law is because too many in the past have demonstrated an inability to make an accurate assessment, curb their emotions and wait. Take a minute to read the link cutman provided...it really is (in my opinion) very clear.

OSHA even anticipated the possibilty of conditions when it provided the "rescue" exemption....all rules are off when a victim is involved.

We teach and practice it....Command and D/O's are not included simply because they need to be doing their jobs without interruption and/or distraction in order to ensure firefighter safety and situational success.

Web Boss offers several really good scenarios that are hard to disagree with...hell, I'd probably do them myself. Yet here's a question: where's the proverbial line that cannot be crossed? What appears to be a room and contents could turn out to be a well buttoned up basement fire that's going to drop you the moment you enter the structure. Or...it could just be a room and contents. As far as using the IDLH angle, that's not a bad approach except even a light smoke condition (ie: anything that requires SCBA) technically becomes an IDLH.

If you can hit something from the outside while waiting for the Two Out to get there, why not just take a deep breath and do it? Remember: regardless of what we do, the fire will eventually go out...

As far as four being enough, do you mean for an interior attack? My playbook says minimum 6, better 8: two for the attack, two for the back-up, two for the vent/search, with two outside. Take a look at the Loudon County near miss tape and I see two D/O's helping outside, but in no way shape or form ready to perform a Two Out function....they're not even in their PPE.

Another aspect of the law that's sometimes ignored is the crew integrity part..maintaining adequate contact with your partner. One person searches are still routinely done even today....

Bottom line: it's the person with their experience and decision making skills. Some people (in my estimation) can do a good analysis and make a reasonable decision, while others have absolutely no business even considering it.

I realize how hopelessly cynical this will sound, but I get the impression sometimes that since fires aren't occuring very often, the mindset of many firefighters is: "OMG! A fire! A REAL fire! Quick! I have to do something before the $%^&* thing goes out!