New Jersey Government doing what it does best....

[voyager9]

Sept 22, 2008 11:01:58 GMT -5 papacheese said:

And, I might add, rightfully so. Fire trucks never have, never are, and never will be a commodity that can be "standardized" and offered out to bid with a reasonable expectation that you will receive an acceptable product.

I think PA has something where they can select a stock truck off something like the State List and then customize it within 20% of the listed price. Something like that, which would at least serve as a common starting point may have merit.

Of course all of that assumes that the process of getting something on a State List isn't rife with the same problems this report rails against.

[breakingsomemirror]

I guess I'm in the minority here but I don't think this report is all that bad. Let me rephrase that. I am not impressed all that much with how it was written but I think the the intent and the overall outcome aren't necessarily a bad thing.

I've been doing this a long time and seen a lot of trucks specs and bids. I understand this is a complicated process and for those not familiar with it, it's sometimes a good thing that the manufacturers and their reps help.

What I've always had a problem with is specifically specking a truck to a certain brand no matter what. I personally think this is wrong. I don't necessarily agree you'll get a "quality product" every single time and for the best price.

For example, I cut my teeth with a department that was tride and true Mack. To this day I long for a Mack and probably bleed a little Mack. (Anyone remember the saying, "Once you go Mack, you'll never go back?") For years we specked Macks and that was good. Except for the years there was a "bad load of steel" and two of the bodies rusted out. Then there were the infamous MC Macks, which were the biggest pieces of crap but we bought them, because they were from Mack and we wouldn't settle for anything else. Wanna guess how that plan worked out? (Trust me, it didn't.)

Today, I think the "Big Oval" manufacturer (without naming names) is the new Mack. People drink the Kool-Aid and buy them and damn the consequences. Yes, I know I'll hear it, "We've had them for years and never had a problem!". That may be true. However, I know for a fact of quite of few departments who would never buy one again!

I currently belong to a department that is a big fan of the Big Oval and that's fine and dandy. Personally, I spit my Kool-Aid out and objectively don't think they are all that. I think there are other manufacturers who make just as good a product, if not better and certainly cheaper than they do. Does that mean I'd never buy one if it was my money? No, I'd look at ALL my options and RESEARCH them and talk to people who have actually BOUGHT one RECENTLY and make an objective determination. By they way, I'd do it even more so now because it's NOT my money, it's the taxpayers.

Am I saying always take the low bid? No. What I'm saying is to keep the options open and make manufacturers compete. If a manufacturer knows that you/they are specking you a truck that nobody else can meet the bid for, then what incentive do they have to cut you the best deal? None and that's just plain 'ol fact.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere. The State needs to let fire departments meet and get guidance from manufacturers. The fire departments need to understand that there are certain rules and getting too cozy with a manufacturer or sales rep is just bound to breed problems.

Sorry to the Big Oval lovers I offended but I just had to say my peace. Hopefully we as a fire service will learn how to play by the rules a little better and the state will leave us alone. Believe me, I don't want them designing fire trucks for me any more than I want them to do much of anything, the way they are run. However, if we don't watch ourselves, we won't have a choice and it will be our own fault.

Thanks and stay safe.

[papacheese]

I'm an acknowledged "Big Oval" fan and I wasn't the least bit offended...everyone has their personal preferences based on past experience and criteria. To me, regardless of what truck you like, it's about receiving fair value for the money that you're paying out. Some manufacturers live in the "low bid zone"..... making low quality stuff for low prices, while others supposedly build in lots of perceived value and then charge you through the nose.

My problem is this: if price is the primary component in the decision making matrix, then you're ignoring a host of other possibily valuable items and services that unfortunately can't be itemized on a tally sheet. Bean counters want to see numbers, but sometimes that's not possible.

In my experience, you should never take a low bid...the premise that the other, higher bidders are simply gouging you is too ridiculous to contemplate. Ask any professional purchasing manager...

Bottom line: YOU have decide WHAT apparatus is needed and HOW much you're willing to pay for it. To presume that fire companies don't investigate and research the quality and features of a particular fire truck model is absolutely ludicrous....

[shader101]

let the commission write a bid and get a truck delivered ,would be interesting to see that state designed "pos " the comm findings reak more of political hog wash than anything helpfull to fireman or taxpayers i did enjoy reading the statements from those rebutting the findings. maybe they should rephrase it to" low qualified bid" , most intovative tools and trucks were products firefighters came up with, not any commission or manufacture, i really don't want to ride ,driveror fight a fire with a truck designed by some trenton bafoon who got his job because he was friends with a politican or maybe related to one and has a degree in BS (bull Shit).

[RngrVnc33]

Here's a thought..... how about the state regulates the manufacturer's and not the FD's. If there were limits on profit and variations in the way certain aspects of the truck were made, then most manufactures would be all within the same price range thus making price not a factor.... No more low bid!

[papacheese]

Oct 3, 2008 11:52:35 GMT -5 RngrVnc33 said:

Here's a thought..... how about the state regulates the manufacturer's and not the FD's. If there were limits on profit and variations in the way certain aspects of the truck were made, then most manufactures would be all within the same price range thus making price not a factor.... No more low bid!

I think that fits the classic definition of "communism"...the "state" controlling the means of production.

There are a host of reasons for price differences: greed, overhead cost, engineering costs, research and development costs, transportation costs, advertising costs, material costs.....not to mention skilled labor. Some manufacturers enjoy an advantage due to geography, while others may have lower labor or energy costs. Some do little engineering work by just copying what's out there while others invenst a lot of time and dollars in improving their designs in hopes it will result in more sales. Even if the state decreed a "standard profit", the pricing would still be different.

In the end, you get what you pay for - period. A manufacturer who consistently overprices - or underprices - their product will eventually go out of business. We're not buying a standard commodity here like coffee, paper, wheat, oil, but a specialized piece of equipment that needs to do exactly what we want it to do, time after time. Trying to "standardize" a fire truck spec will result in a compromise that no one will be happy with.

What torques me is the apparent power of the bean counter, who beleives that the only thing that matters is the total dollar amount.

It's not the about the price, but the value.

[Jack]

If the state really wants to report on absurd fire apparatus purchases, they should look into what kind (engine, truck, etc) of apparatus we purchase instead of what brand. Why do some towns need two "heavy rescues?" Why do towns that are 1 sq mile need 2 engines, a truck, and a rescue? The entire area (Camden, Burlington, Gloucester counties) have all started with the task force concept or automatic mutual aide on the first alarm. Why do three towns in a row need the same "kind" of apparatus? Multiple engines, ladders, rescues, etc.

Like the Rev. said, we are our own worst enemy. If we policed ourselves and did not follow the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude, maybe the state would not be up our asses. The fire service has always been the place the politicians look first to cut costs. Lets not give them any ammunition.

Some of our counties have more apparatus in them than some of the five boroughs in New York or sections of Philadelphia and we run a fraction of the calls. Everyone needs to wake up and get rid of "home rule" and we can do it ourselves.

[thelurker]

Oct 11, 2008 15:54:31 GMT -5 Jack said:

If the state really wants to report on absurd fire apparatus purchases, they should look into what kind (engine, truck, etc) of apparatus we purchase instead of what brand. Why do some towns need two "heavy rescues?" Why do towns that are 1 sq mile need 2 engines, a truck, and a rescue? The entire area (Camden, Burlington, Gloucester counties) have all started with the task force concept or automatic mutual aide on the first alarm. Why do three towns in a row need the same "kind" of apparatus? Multiple engines, ladders, rescues, etc.

Like the Rev. said, we are our own worst enemy. If we policed ourselves and did not follow the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude, maybe the state would not be up our asses. The fire service has always been the place the politicians look first to cut costs. Lets not give them any ammunition.

Some of our counties have more apparatus in them than some of the five boroughs in New York or sections of Philadelphia and we run a fraction of the calls. Everyone needs to wake up and get rid of "home rule" and we can do it ourselves.

Amen brother, preach the good word.

[papacheese]

I wholeheartedly agree with you guys....truck purchases are just one piece of the overall puzzle. In my opinion, the fire service is poised to undergo a relatively drastic transformation in the next ten years. The days of doing whatever we want and spending whatever we want are rapidly disappearing.....change is coming, although probably not as quick as some might prefer.

Take a step back and try to look at the whole picture....the number of fires down, emergency medical service calls up (and expected to explode in the next 20 years), declining tax bases and budget dollars, increased pressure to justify financial requests, more regulation and accountability, more pressure to "specialize", and most importantly from a budget standpoint, a slow but steady attrition of volunteers. Taken individually, each of those factors could have a pretty significant impact; put them together and you are now staring at a potentially radical change from what we see today.

Change is inevitible....but it should be up to us to define the hows and whys.

Unfortunately, the real "core" of the home rule issue has nothing to do with fire services, but instead, schools...the thought of farming their kids out to some uber-school district or losing the individual nature of their respective township's education system is enough to have most citizens marching on Trenton. Cut the fire department to the bone? No problem. Change where my kids go to school? Not a chance.

I can't help but laugh when I hear about "consolidation" and how many billions of dollars it will save. There's truth to that assertion...until you eventually lose the volunteers, then watch all the money you saved by consolidating get wiped out by payroll costs.

And while I'm on my soap box...want to save HUGE amounts of wasted dollars and really make a significant impact on property taxes? Consolidate school districts.

I'm not against consolidating fire services when and where it makes sense, but can't help but get a little PO'd that school districts - the sacred cow of wastefulness - are always treated as untouchable.

Now, where did I put that portable head soaker I bought the other day? LOL

[thelurker]

Papa, I don't know about untouchable...it's just that the teacher's union had that much "juice." And as soon as they say your children will suffer, everyone bends over backwards (including me) to accommodate the needs of the children.

[papacheese]

Oct 12, 2008 11:01:32 GMT -5 @thelurker said:

Papa, I don't know about untouchable...it's just that the teacher's union had that much "juice." And as soon as they say your children will suffer, everyone bends over backwards (including me) to accommodate the needs of the children.

Kinda like me yelling "firefighter safety" during budget meetings...LOL.

Just a stream of consciousness thing here:

This is a prime example (in my opinion) of how we've screwed ourselves by being nice and not making waves. Look at it this way: schools and police usually always get what they ask for moneywise - both have built-in emotional hot buttons they can easily push whenever things get a little financially sticky. As you pointed out Lurker, nothing touches a nerve quite like the thought of not giving oodles of money for Johnny's education or putting another police officer on the street where they're a highly visible and tangible example of committment to citizen safety. Not that there's anything wrong with either organization or their goals, but where does that leave our favorite group? At the bottom of the financial food chain.

As a emergency service we've always been very insular and fragmented...the sandbox syndrome. We never speak in a common, unified voice nor actively push for our share of the pie. Instead we try to remain quiet and undisturbed so no one messes with our perogatives and preferences. While there are some advantages to taking that approach, there are also corresponding disadvantages...like funding.

[JDub]

Oct 15, 2008 10:03:16 GMT -5 papacheese said:

Oct 12, 2008 11:01:32 GMT -5 @thelurker said:

Papa, I don't know about untouchable...it's just that the teacher's union had that much "juice." And as soon as they say your children will suffer, everyone bends over backwards (including me) to accommodate the needs of the children.

Kinda like me yelling "firefighter safety" during budget meetings...LOL.

Just a stream of consciousness thing here:

This is a prime example (in my opinion) of how we've screwed ourselves by being nice and not making waves. Look at it this way: schools and police usually always get what they ask for moneywise - both have built-in emotional hot buttons they can easily push whenever things get a little financially sticky. As you pointed out Lurker, nothing touches a nerve quite like the thought of not giving oodles of money for Johnny's education or putting another police officer on the street where they're a highly visible and tangible example of committment to citizen safety. Not that there's anything wrong with either organization or their goals, but where does that leave our favorite group? At the bottom of the financial food chain.

As a emergency service we've always been very insular and fragmented...the sandbox syndrome. We never speak in a common, unified voice nor actively push for our share of the pie. Instead we try to remain quiet and undisturbed so no one messes with our perogatives and preferences. While there are some advantages to taking that approach, there are also corresponding disadvantages...like funding.

Papachesse you hit on something that I feel is very important that we don't do enough of, Public Relations. Like you said, Police are out on the street 24/7, and when it comes to our children's education, well in my opinion thats a no brainer. Where as with most, key word most not all, most fire dept. only source of speaking with the public or being visible to the public, is either Fire Prevention in October.

The real problem is how can we get out there and show the citizens that we are on call and/or on the job 27/7 like the police. I have a few ideas, and I am not saying their perfect or that they'll even work. Most departments now do some sort of duty crews now. Maybe take a firetruck to a park at night and talk with kids and parents at a sporting event. Possibly go to a sporting event at a high school. Maybe create a adopt-a-firefighter program for the schools. A few ideas that I thought of after reading this post.

Sorry for the elongated post.

[1900]

Papachesse you hit on something that I feel is very important that we don't do enough of, Public Relations. Like you said, Police are out on the street 24/7, and when it comes to our children's education, well in my opinion thats a no brainer. Where as with most, key word most not all, most fire dept. only source of speaking with the public or being visible to the public, is either Fire Prevention in October.

The real problem is how can we get out there and show the citizens that we are on call and/or on the job 27/7 like the police. I have a few ideas, and I am not saying their perfect or that they'll even work. Most departments now do some sort of duty crews now. Maybe take a firetruck to a park at night and talk with kids and parents at a sporting event. Possibly go to a sporting event at a high school. Maybe create a adopt-a-firefighter program for the schools. A few ideas that I thought of after reading this post.



Thats a great idea...til the politicians complain that your using too much fuel answering calls, training and PR?

[papacheese]

I am aware of two very proactive PR moves by local departments that, in my opinion, are really excellent examples of keeping ourselves relevent and in the public's consciousness. Station 171's duty crew will, upon request, go to a citizens house and conduct a safety inspection; Collingswood does the same thing, only it's organized in a block-by-block format. Yes, I know we didn't join to become salespeople, but the time's rapidly approaching when we might just have to be salespeople in order to justify what we're doing and spending. In both cases, the people get to see us up close and personal as well as get some valuable info about keeping themselves from becoming a statistic.

Another added benefit is that this program gives the crew a chance to make a quick sketch of the dwelling's layout for a future pre-plan. Nothing has a greater impact on a positive outcome then intel....let me correct that, GOOD intel. Just knowing the structure type, room layout, and location of key features like stairs, utilities, and bedrooms can make a huge difference in your decision making. With all the advances in computers these days - plus a tech-savvy generation who knows how to use them - we can start assembling a very extensive database of our local....the tools and opportunities are there.

[Click Click 27]

Oct 28, 2008 15:12:54 GMT -5 1900 said:

Papachesse you hit on something that I feel is very important that we don't do enough of, Public Relations. Like you said, Police are out on the street 24/7, and when it comes to our children's education, well in my opinion thats a no brainer. Where as with most, key word most not all, most fire dept. only source of speaking with the public or being visible to the public, is either Fire Prevention in October.

The real problem is how can we get out there and show the citizens that we are on call and/or on the job 27/7 like the police. I have a few ideas, and I am not saying their perfect or that they'll even work. Most departments now do some sort of duty crews now. Maybe take a firetruck to a park at night and talk with kids and parents at a sporting event. Possibly go to a sporting event at a high school. Maybe create a adopt-a-firefighter program for the schools. A few ideas that I thought of after reading this post.



Thats a great idea...til the politicians complain that your using too much fuel answering calls, training and PR?

That is a good point, Even more now because it is an election year and the financial status of the state is in the Sh***er