R.O.A.M.

[papacheese]

Apr 30, 2008 15:01:33 GMT -5 WebBoss said:

I still think one of best safety features we had for running out of air was the "old" Belt Mounted Regulators and the masks with the elephant trunks. Ran out of air in an Oh-Shit circumstance, shove the hose in your coat. It really didn't get easier then that.

Now of course the best safety measure is trying to prevent the circumstance from happening to begin with.

Everyone needs to establish a "Point of No Return" during their operations. BUT... that point needs to also include the limitations of the fellow crew members as well. I know to myself, if I'm commited deep inside a bad enviroment, 1000 and I'm outta there. That's flexible though, because if I'm working by a entrance point or the smoke is really clearing up, then I'll extend that a ways.

There is and can be no real hard-fast rule. Rules of Air Managment has to be taught to the incipient firefighter - quite possibly before they even learn to don an SCBA.

Now there's an idea... before we teach them SCBA's - let's teach ROAM and MayDay and all that FIRST! Way before they have a chance to learn bad habits. Ideas???

Nah...makes too much sense.

The latest version of NFPA 1404-2006 Respiratory Protection Training states:

5.1.4 The AHJ shall establish and enforce written standard operating procedures for training in the use of respiratory protection equipment that shall include the following:
(1)* When respiratory protection equipment is to be used
[glow=red,2,300](2)* Individual air management program[/glow]

That means we need to identify not only how much air we use but how much we should leave the building with, the proverbial "insurance policy". If your organization believes 1000 is OK, then go with it....

I'm raising BOTH my hands for Mayday and ROAM in Firefighter 1 too....THAT's when change will finally occur (after us old bastards are finally gone!)

Lastly, don't believe for one minute that "light smoke" is OK to breathe...that's a holdover from the old cotton/paper/wood days of my long-lamented youth. In today's fire, it's more like polystyrene/PVC/and methyl-ethyl goose poop.

[WebBoss]

I meant this more as a motivation to change our teaching habits, since no matter what we are doing we obviously aren't affecting the learning habits too well.

IE: Before you place ass in fire truck - this is where ALL of the equipment is, this is your absolute function, and this is how you put on your seatbelt. Now that you've tested out on that to say an easy 100%, now you may begin to ride.

Want to go to Fire 1? Now you need to learn how to wear SCBA - but before you actually put it on for the first time, here's how to call a MAYDAY and here's your ROAM procedures and so on and so on.

Ideas Ideas Ideas...

[thecutman]

Apr 30, 2008 15:01:33 GMT -5 WebBoss said:

I still think one of best safety features we had for running out of air was the "old" Belt Mounted Regulators and the masks with the elephant trunks. Ran out of air in an Oh-Shit circumstance, shove the hose in your coat. It really didn't get easier then that.

Now of course the best safety measure is trying to prevent the circumstance from happening to begin with.

Everyone needs to establish a "Point of No Return" during their operations. BUT... that point needs to also include the limitations of the fellow crew members as well. I know to myself, if I'm commited deep inside a bad enviroment, 1000 and I'm outta there. That's flexible though, because if I'm working by a entrance point or the smoke is really clearing up, then I'll extend that a ways.

There is and can be no real hard-fast rule. Rules of Air Managment has to be taught to the incipient firefighter - quite possibly before they even learn to don an SCBA.

Now there's an idea... before we teach them SCBA's - let's teach ROAM and MayDay and all that FIRST! Way before they have a chance to learn bad habits. Ideas???

Wow atleast someone see's what the students should be learning in Fire I. Quite a few of the instructor's have been saying the same thing. We teach them how to get into trouble but now how to get out of trouble.

At the CF last semester we taught Fire I students how to call a MAYDAY and we make them perform the same via radio with one of the instructors acting as the IC. The other instructor works on tangling the student in wires, standing by to make sure their partner stands by he call the Mayday and then activate their pass. We swap students and do it again. We also teach team work and how to mitigate this type of an issue. It works but they need repetition. Good point Sean.

Scotty O

[thelurker]

Apr 30, 2008 15:26:04 GMT -5 papacheese said:

Apr 30, 2008 15:01:33 GMT -5 WebBoss said:

I still think one of best safety features we had for running out of air was the "old" Belt Mounted Regulators and the masks with the elephant trunks. Ran out of air in an Oh-Shit circumstance, shove the hose in your coat. It really didn't get easier then that.

Now of course the best safety measure is trying to prevent the circumstance from happening to begin with.

Everyone needs to establish a "Point of No Return" during their operations. BUT... that point needs to also include the limitations of the fellow crew members as well. I know to myself, if I'm commited deep inside a bad enviroment, 1000 and I'm outta there. That's flexible though, because if I'm working by a entrance point or the smoke is really clearing up, then I'll extend that a ways.

There is and can be no real hard-fast rule. Rules of Air Managment has to be taught to the incipient firefighter - quite possibly before they even learn to don an SCBA.

Now there's an idea... before we teach them SCBA's - let's teach ROAM and MayDay and all that FIRST! Way before they have a chance to learn bad habits. Ideas???

Nah...makes too much sense.

The latest version of NFPA 1404-2006 Respiratory Protection Training states:

5.1.4 The AHJ shall establish and enforce written standard operating procedures for training in the use of respiratory protection equipment that shall include the following:
(1)* When respiratory protection equipment is to be used
[glow=red,2,300](2)* Individual air management program[/glow]

That means we need to identify not only how much air we use but how much we should leave the building with, the proverbial "insurance policy". If your organization believes 1000 is OK, then go with it....

I'm raising BOTH my hands for Mayday and ROAM in Firefighter 1 too....THAT's when change will finally occur (after us old bastards are finally gone!)

Lastly, don't believe for one minute that "light smoke" is OK to breathe...that's a holdover from the old cotton/paper/wood days of my long-lamented youth. In today's fire, it's more like polystyrene/PVC/and methyl-ethyl goose poop.

Has that NFPA part been accepted by our state government/ PEOSHA??

[papacheese]

Good question, Dean....I can't find any indication that it has, but then again I would NEVER assume they haven't either. One of my biggest gripes with New Jersey is that legislation and regulations which directly affect us are rarely announced or distributed...usually we find out after something bad happens.

As far as whether it truly applies to us, there's the old "standard of care" philosophy, which means that ANY NFPA standard can (and apparently will) be used as a benchmark to judge our actions. An upstate New York Assistant Chief found that out the hard way and is doing prison time for involuntary manslaughter in connection with the death of a firefighter during a live burn training session. His defense lawyer claimed he was not knowledgeable of NFPA live burn standards and furthermore, New York hadn't adopted them. The jury felt otherwise.

Since PEOSHA is the New Jersey version of OSHA, they have the ability and authority to use any nationally recognized standard of care as a benchmark whether it's been formally adopted or not. Complicating things even more, the Department of Health and Senior Services (if I'm not mistaken) has jurisdiction over respiratory protection...so add another agency to the regulatory merry-go-round.

Here's my opinion based on everything I've learned: whether we like it or not, whether we want to or not, eventually the NFPA standard will be trotted out as used as a proverbial club to beat us into compliance. It just depends on the severity of the infraction and it's unfortunate consequences.

[thelurker]

I will bring it up to our new Chief, and see what he feels we should do. Thanks papa

[cmcollier]

Who likes which size cylinder???

When I was a volunteer in Mt Laurel and worked part time in North Wildwood I wore a 30 min cylinder.

When I worked in Wildwood City I wore a 60 min cylinder.

Now at work I wear a 45 min cylinder.


My personal favorite is the 45 min cylinder. The 30 min is nice because it is light, but it just runs out too fast especially if you want to leave the IDLH before the low air alarm sounds. The 60 min is nice because its a lot of air, but just too heavy and too bulky. The 45 min is definitely heavier than the 30, but less than the 60 min. Its also larger than the 30, but smaller than the 60. To me the 45 seems like a good compromise between, size, weight, and air volume.

What do you think???

[papacheese]

Anything's better than those old steel slugs we used years ago....LOL.

OK, here's my take - regardless of what size bottle you choose for what reasons, it means very little if you're an easily excitable couch potato. Regardless of capacity...30, 45, or 60, you're going to suck down a lot of air if you're not in reasonably decent shape. When we've run air management practice sessions, the time variations seen for our "supposedly 45 minute cylinders" can vary wildly from 12 to 25 minutes. This alone is a convincing argument for the "liters" conversion...everyone would be tested and know what their workload use rate is, making air management less attention intensive. While nothing can be that definitive, at least you'd have a decent idea of how long you can reasonably expect to work in an IDLH before heading out.

One last thing: if nothing else, teaching ROAM heightens firefighter awareness of their air situation. Do I really think every crew is going stop halfway down a smoky hallway, have a group meeting and compare air readings? I hardly think so....but maybe, just maybe, the thought of air supply will cross their minds during the course of events. Looking over the responses, I'd say we're all preaching to the converted...it's the "five drills and one fire a year" people I worry about.

[ENG27SQ]

May 1, 2008 10:58:56 GMT -5 cmcollier said:

Who likes which size cylinder???

When I was a volunteer in Mt Laurel and worked part time in North Wildwood I wore a 30 min cylinder.

When I worked in Wildwood City I wore a 60 min cylinder.

Now at work I wear a 45 min cylinder.


My personal favorite is the 45 min cylinder. The 30 min is nice because it is light, but it just runs out too fast especially if you want to leave the IDLH before the low air alarm sounds. The 60 min is nice because its a lot of air, but just too heavy and too bulky. The 45 min is definitely heavier than the 30, but less than the 60 min. Its also larger than the 30, but smaller than the 60. To me the 45 seems like a good compromise between, size, weight, and air volume.
What do you think???

We use to have 30 min MSAs but our packs now are the 45 min. I have no complaints about the 45s. I like them very much. Not heavy at all, compared to the old 2.2s which I wore only a handful of times in training compared to those veterans in the county who did it for years.