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Post by papacheese on Apr 12, 2008 16:57:58 GMT -5
If you don't know the acronym, go to: www.manageyourair.comA statistic to chew on: 63% of fireground LODD's in the past ten years occured with firefighters running out of air.The "Seattle Guys" have been preaching this for several years now and in my opinion, the Rule of Air Management should be incorporated in every department's SOP/SOG's and practiced on a daily basis. Having had the good fortune to attend their presentation, this is one aspect of firefighter health and safety that we can no longer afford to ignore. Leaving BEFORE your low-air alarm activates saves you from taking the dreaded Breath From Hell. Anyone who's had a good lungful of today's toxic brew knows - this ain't your daddy's smoke. Chiefs, officers, and anyone responsible for training: take a few minutes to browse through the website and see if you think it's something we all should adopt. The site has a lot of resources to use including skill-based exercises - plus I have a Power Point to offer up to anyone who wants it (simply delete the MFD stuff and substitute your own). Like seatbelts, it isn't going to happen overnight, but with constant reinforcement and training, it's one less thing we'll have to worry about. |
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Post by thelurker on Apr 12, 2008 21:11:55 GMT -5
Welcome back from FDIC Rick.
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Post by papacheese on Apr 13, 2008 6:53:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Dean....the conference never fails to energize me and get the ole training juices flowing again. This is one event I wish everyone could attend...it's that good. Realizing that not every department has the funding needed, I at least want to spread around what I saw and heard.
In case anyone was wondering...for future reference, figure it costs about $1500 per person to go to Indy - that's airfare, hotel, registration, and some meal money.
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Post by thecutman on Apr 17, 2008 21:07:20 GMT -5
Thanks, Dean....the conference never fails to energize me and get the ole training juices flowing again. This is one event I wish everyone could attend...it's that good. Realizing that not every department has the funding needed, I at least want to spread around what I saw and heard. In case anyone was wondering...for future reference, figure it costs about $1500 per person to go to Indy - that's airfare, hotel, registration, and some meal money. Papa, I saw took the class Point of no Return with these guys in Vegas at Firehouse Expo. If I am not mistaken they will be in Baltimore doing live fire training for this topic. I will double check on that. This is an excellent program and an eye opener. I know we train quite often breathing our bottle down to gauge our air management. Teaching a fireman when it is time to leave is a hard concept to get across. This is why techniques such as SCIP breathing which is no longer taught, using a hose line to get air that aspirates around the nozzle were all things that I was taught when I entered the fire service years back. The fire service has seemed to move away from these techniques but they will still buy you valuable time. Ok off my soap box. If anyone gets a chance this is an excellent class with some very eye opening case studies from their department. Scott |
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Post by papacheese on Apr 18, 2008 5:31:54 GMT -5
The fire service itself seems schizo at times....the "official" organizations (NFPA, NIOSH, etc) specifically ban tenchiques like buddy breathing, skip breathing, and other things we've been shown....yet they should be taught as an option when all else fails. I think the primary reason for this is that they want people to leave before the low-air alarm goes off, an admirable thing to advocate, but still a little unrealistic since the culture hasn't changed yet.
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Post by thecutman on Apr 18, 2008 19:45:28 GMT -5
The fire service itself seems schizo at times....the "official" organizations (NFPA, NIOSH, etc) specifically ban techniques like buddy breathing, skip breathing, and other things we've been shown....yet they should be taught as an option when all else fails. I think the primary reason for this is that they want people to leave before the low-air alarm goes off, an admirable thing to advocate, but still a little unrealistic since the culture hasn't changed yet. I agree that we have to train our firemen to leave early, but when can we get the building standards to help us out. We all know S@$t happens and newer building construction can play a large part in early structural failures. This is why building construction classes should be mandatory for all officers. Ok back to the question at hand, this is the reason that I feel we need to teach students other options for these type of moments, when they are trapped and running out of air. Scott |
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Post by papacheese on Apr 22, 2008 5:00:25 GMT -5
I concur wholeheartedly...anything that could be used to buy a few extra minutes or seconds can be the margin for survival...why not teach it, as long as the message about leaving early is constantly reinforced as a part of the training.
As far as the structural standards are concerned, I have literally no hope whatsoever that they will change to protect firefighters; just getting residential sprinklers adopted has been a nightmare.
I recently had a conversation with a builder/architect about lightweight construction; he was absolutely clueless that it posed a significant danger. For him, as well as others, it was about costs and design elegance...using less materials to make more structure.
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Post by voyager9 on Apr 22, 2008 9:53:55 GMT -5
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Post by thelurker on Apr 22, 2008 20:47:00 GMT -5
hrmm....isn't this why our low air alarm goes off when 25% of the air supply is remaining? To give you the time to get out?
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Post by thecutman on Apr 28, 2008 20:51:31 GMT -5
hrmm....isn't this why our low air alarm goes off when 25% of the air supply is remaining? To give you the time to get out? It doesn't always work that way. Maybe you should sit through the class and see first hand what is discussed. These are seasoned firemen that see more fire than we do!! I have sat through the class and they have something good to say. And it depends on who is breathing that air and how they are trained to breathe that 25% in a Oh Shit situation. I am sure that 25% will help out allot if!!! Oh yeah I just fell through the that truss floor. I also understand that this is a dangerous job and we are going to continue to kill guys but every little bit of knowledge and every tool in the tool box helps (even that 25%)!! By the way Lurker how much will that 25% help when we are disoriented and in a warehouse? Don't say it can't happen, go to the class and you will see that it can! |
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Post by papacheese on Apr 29, 2008 6:39:40 GMT -5
hrmm....isn't this why our low air alarm goes off when 25% of the air supply is remaining? To give you the time to get out? That's what we were taught, Lurker....when the bell goes off, leave. ROAM advocates maintaining that 25% as an "insurance policy" in case something goes wrong on your way out of the structure. In most cases, it won't be needed...until, of course, something does go wrong. If that happens, you now have an additional time period to either self-extricate or call a Mayday and not run out of air. As our department's HSO, I thought the program segment called "The Breath from Hell" is particularly compelling. With all the nasty shit in today's IDLH, all it can take is one breath to kill you...the old days of ripping off your mask and sucking the carpet is officially over, since the carpet is now producing a lot of hydrogen cyanide BEFORE it ever ignites. To me, ROAM is simply cutting down on the margin of error....why not simply be safe than sorry? Isn't fighting fire enough of a rush? More simply put: why would you add an unnecessary element of risk if you didn't have to? |
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Post by thelurker on Apr 29, 2008 9:01:30 GMT -5
hrmm....isn't this why our low air alarm goes off when 25% of the air supply is remaining? To give you the time to get out? It doesn't always work that way. Maybe you should sit through the class and see first hand what is discussed. These are seasoned firemen that see more fire than we do!! I have sat through the class and they have something good to say. And it depends on who is breathing that air and how they are trained to breathe that 25% in a Oh Shit situation. I am sure that 25% will help out allot if!!! Oh yeah I just fell through the that truss floor. I also understand that this is a dangerous job and we are going to continue to kill guys but every little bit of knowledge and every tool in the tool box helps (even that 25%)!! By the way Lurker how much will that 25% help when we are disoriented and in a warehouse? Don't say it can't happen, go to the class and you will see that it can! I would love to go to the class, but I can almost guarantee that won't happen, unless I become wealthy enough to pay for FDIC on my own. I never disputed the quality of the firemen teaching the class, and I know the bell doesn't even always ring. Ever realize you were sucking facepiece, only to find out your bottle is empty and the bell never rang? I have, in a job, and it was scary. I am just saying, you are really cutting down your operational usefulness if you keep leaving early. Disorientation is always a hazard, look how many firefighters get lost and killed in SFDs. I definately think you need to keep an eye on your air supply, and gauge how long you are in vs. how much air you have to get out, but this is getting ridiculous. In this theory, you really need someone to monitor your air supply from outside and tell you when to come out. And not by the "time keeper" method, because we all know 30 min bottles aren't, and everyone breathes differently, but by an actual PSI remaining method. Then take into account all of the people that can't read their air gauge because they can't see it. I agree that "more air" will always help if you fall through a floor or become trapped under something, but lets bow our heads for all those brothers who fell through the floor as soon as they went in the door. Fresh bottle and still died. Making it to the end of your career in the fire service is a crap shoot, and I am all for making it safer, but we still have a job to do, and this is just making it harder to get it done. If you want to get yourself a good back-up plan, go buy one of those filters that I posted under the technology page. |
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Post by thelurker on Apr 29, 2008 9:19:23 GMT -5
hrmm....isn't this why our low air alarm goes off when 25% of the air supply is remaining? To give you the time to get out? That's what we were taught, Lurker....when the bell goes off, leave. ROAM advocates maintaining that 25% as an "insurance policy" in case something goes wrong on your way out of the structure. In most cases, it won't be needed...until, of course, something does go wrong. If that happens, you now have an additional time period to either self-extricate or call a Mayday and not run out of air. As our department's HSO, I thought the program segment called "The Breath from Hell" is particularly compelling. With all the nasty shit in today's IDLH, all it can take is one breath to kill you...the old days of ripping off your mask and sucking the carpet is officially over, since the carpet is now producing a lot of hydrogen cyanide BEFORE it ever ignites. To me, ROAM is simply cutting down on the margin of error....why not simply be safe than sorry? Isn't fighting fire enough of a rush? More simply put: why would you add an unnecessary element of risk if you didn't have to? Hydrogen Cyanide is an absorption AND inhalation hazard, and SCBA will only protect against part of this, although your turnouts will provide some protection, it will not be much or for very long. I copied this from OSHA; If hydrogen cyanide contacts the skin, workers should flush the affected areas immediately with plenty of water, followed by washing with soap and water. Clothing contaminated with hydrogen cyanide should be removed immediately, and provisions should be made for the safe removal of the chemical from the clothing. Persons laundering the clothes should be informed of the hazardous properties of hydrogen cyanide, particularly its potential for severe systemic toxicity by dermal absorption or inhalation. A worker who handles hydrogen cyanide should thoroughly wash hands, forearms, and face with soap and water before eating, using tobacco products, using toilet facilities, applying cosmetics, or taking medication. Workers should not eat, drink, use tobacco products, apply cosmetics, or take medication in areas where hydrogen cyanide or a solution containing hydrogen cyanide is handled, processed, or stored. |
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Post by voyager9 on Apr 29, 2008 10:08:05 GMT -5
In this theory, you really need someone to monitor your air supply from outside and tell you when to come out. And not by the "time keeper" method, because we all know 30 min bottles aren't, and everyone breathes differently, but by an actual PSI remaining method. Don't some of the newer SCBA have this remote monitoring feature? I thought the new MSA's had a built-in "Phase-2" accountability tied to the wearer's FOB. The wearer's ID, PSI, PASS-state, respiratory rate and other factors like unit and assignment can be monitored via a laptop at the CP. I think its also two-way so the EVAC is transmitted from the CP right to the SCBA. Some could see it as "a simple concept being overcomplicated by technology". Others could see it as the manufacturers packing a proven product with "features" to make them more expensive. Others still could see it as another excuse for the CP to micromanage. I see it as a way to get the CP what they need.. information. |
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Post by papacheese on Apr 29, 2008 14:54:52 GMT -5
Lurker - you know I love ya as a brother, but I respectfully disagree. I'm 100% with you on the fact that we have a job to do.....but not at the expense of dying or ruining the rest of our lives. Firefighting is inherently dangerous, but should never be a crapshoot when we know a hazard exists.
Before I stray TOO far off topic, I'd rather leave before my bell goes off than take a chance with a filter that doesn't make oxygen. There's a reason why they aren't flying off the shelves like proverbial hotcakes...they are more of a crapshoot than "leaving something undone".
What ROAM really teaches us is to maintain a constant awareness of our air supply in an environment that is no longer merely irritating but increasingly lethal. Remember that you're part of a crew, and the firefighter with the lowest pressure is the one who dictates the time allowed in the IDLH. There's a reason why Great Britian and Europe suffer one tenth of the LODDs we do: because they teach and enforce a variation of ROAM that goes something like this: "If you come out with your bell ringing, expect your wallet to be lighter next week".
The difference is merely culture. Tradition and mythology state that big brawny men wait until the last possible second to stumble out of a smoke filled house, gasping and choking, while lightweights exit before their bell goes off.
In the words of the immortal Col. Potter: "Horse hockeypucks!"
So...is all this just a little too "over the top"? If you look back at my initial posting and note the percentage of LODDs in which the FF ran out of air, then (IMHO) there's a compelling reason to change what we're doing. Obviously we are not teaching/learning/practicing/enforcing a safe procedure, but instead rewarding people who take unnecessary risks.
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Post by thecutman on Apr 29, 2008 17:21:05 GMT -5
Lurker - you know I love ya as a brother, but I respectfully disagree. I'm 100% with you on the fact that we have a job to do.....but not at the expense of dying or ruining the rest of our lives. Firefighting is inherently dangerous, but should never be a crapshoot when we know a hazard exists. Before I stray TOO far off topic, I'd rather leave before my bell goes off than take a chance with a filter that doesn't make oxygen. There's a reason why they aren't flying off the shelves like proverbial hotcakes...they are more of a crapshoot than "leaving something undone". What ROAM really teaches us is to maintain a constant awareness of our air supply in an environment that is no longer merely irritating but increasingly lethal. Remember that you're part of a crew, and the firefighter with the lowest pressure is the one who dictates the time allowed in the IDLH. There's a reason why Great Britian and Europe suffer one tenth of the LODDs we do: because they teach and enforce a variation of ROAM that goes something like this: "If you come out with your bell ringing, expect your wallet to be lighter next week". The difference is merely culture. Tradition and mythology state that big brawny men wait until the last possible second to stumble out of a smoke filled house, gasping and choking, while lightweights exit before their bell goes off. In the words of the immortal Col. Potter: "Horse hockeypucks!" So...is all this just a little too "over the top"? If you look back at my initial posting and note the percentage of LODDs in which the FF ran out of air, then (IMHO) there's a compelling reason to change what we're doing. Obviously we are not teaching/learning/practicing/enforcing a safe procedure, but instead rewarding people who take unnecessary risks. Papa, Well put. I also agree that we have a job to do, however there are usually 25 guys standing outside our fires waiting to do the same job. Lurker, I am not saying to stop working. If you want to work longer do like Seattle did ang go to 45min bottles! Don't use the equipment as an excuse to stay and work longer. How about getting in the gym and getting our bodies in shape to utilize our air better. One more thing is training on air management, know how much time you have under working conditions. Just a few ways to help ourselves. To hell with the house its not worth me running out of air. |
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Post by thelurker on Apr 29, 2008 22:24:33 GMT -5
In this theory, you really need someone to monitor your air supply from outside and tell you when to come out. And not by the "time keeper" method, because we all know 30 min bottles aren't, and everyone breathes differently, but by an actual PSI remaining method. Don't some of the newer SCBA have this remote monitoring feature? I thought the new MSA's had a built-in "Phase-2" accountability tied to the wearer's FOB. The wearer's ID, PSI, PASS-state, respiratory rate and other factors like unit and assignment can be monitored via a laptop at the CP. I think its also two-way so the EVAC is transmitted from the CP right to the SCBA. Some could see it as "a simple concept being overcomplicated by technology". Others could see it as the manufacturers packing a proven product with "features" to make them more expensive. Others still could see it as another excuse for the CP to micromanage. I see it as a way to get the CP what they need.. information. Yes, and with this technology, I agree 100%. Make it a hard number of remaining PSI, and not a timed guesstimate. |
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Post by thelurker on Apr 29, 2008 23:11:49 GMT -5
cutman and papa cheese...30 min or 45 min bottles, it doesn't matter to me. I wear a different bottle just depending on which gear I'm wearing. Although I have heard that some departments feel that 30 min is enough, and you should be in rehab by then....so I guess that is all the decision you department wants to take. I will admit that I am out of shape (although round is a shape), and I am no where near as efficient with my bottle. Plus those 15 years of smoking didn't help. I agree with the importance of knowing your air, but I think getting better at staying oriented is possibly even more important.
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Post by papacheese on Apr 30, 2008 14:46:00 GMT -5
You're absolutely right...it isn't just one thing, but many. Along with being aware of your air supply, you also need to keep track of your surroundings, the situation at hand, the &*%$^& radio, and where your fellow crew members are wandering off to...just thinking about all that's giving me a headache.
To answer another comment, supposedly there will be a switch in the next couple of years from "time-rated cylinders" (ie: 30 and 45 minute bottles) to volume capacity in liters. Sounds hopelessly complicated until you realize that with very little effort and a bit of thinking, you can now easily calculate a fairly accurate use rate for yourself. If you typically consume 5 liters a minute under work load conditions, then you know how long your tank of 100 liters should last.
FYI: one of the reasons for this anticpated shift is a lawsuit against an SCBA manufacturer by a FF's widow which claims their "30 Minute Cylinder" failed to last thirty minutes....go figure.
As far as "how much till rehab", I go on a very simple rule: rehab the guys and gals that are doing the hard work as expeditiously as possible, ie: the first due engine, truck, or rescue crew. The amount of air they used really isn't relevent to me, it's the effort that was expended. I'm certainly no rocket scientist, but to me, the people that just broke their butts to extinguish/vent/search are the ones who need to catch a break as soon as humanly possible..they're the ones whose internal functions are being stressed. It kills me when "five minute wonders" end up getting the cold towels and granola bars when the first dues are still at it.
Lastly, I hope I'm not coming off like some Safety Yoda who believes the fireground should be as safe as a church meeting - I know and concede it never will. What I try to focus on identifying are the things we know can do us harm and if possible, avoid them as much as possible. As I always say: we didn't make the goose poop, - we just get to clean it up.
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Post by WebBoss on Apr 30, 2008 15:01:33 GMT -5
I still think one of best safety features we had for running out of air was the "old" Belt Mounted Regulators and the masks with the elephant trunks. Ran out of air in an Oh-Shit circumstance, shove the hose in your coat. It really didn't get easier then that.
Now of course the best safety measure is trying to prevent the circumstance from happening to begin with.
Everyone needs to establish a "Point of No Return" during their operations. BUT... that point needs to also include the limitations of the fellow crew members as well. I know to myself, if I'm commited deep inside a bad enviroment, 1000 and I'm outta there. That's flexible though, because if I'm working by a entrance point or the smoke is really clearing up, then I'll extend that a ways.
There is and can be no real hard-fast rule. Rules of Air Managment has to be taught to the incipient firefighter - quite possibly before they even learn to don an SCBA.
Now there's an idea... before we teach them SCBA's - let's teach ROAM and MayDay and all that FIRST! Way before they have a chance to learn bad habits. Ideas???
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