Make the Call #39

[papacheese]

Another somewhat subtle twist....after speaking with more than a few forum members, I've heard: "I like the series but don't comment, since it would only be repeating what so-n-so said..."

Gray beards and grizzled vets: hold off commenting and let's get the younger, next generation firefighters and officers to offer their thoughts.

[glow=red,2,300]Make the Call: Offensive, Transitional, or Defensive....and why:[/glow]

[Kramer]

defensive...place looks like it would fall over any minute even if there was no fire, and its already boarded up so the odds of people living in there seem lower to me

[JDub]

Kramer said it! It is boarded up and looks dilapidated, so go defensive, pull the 2 1/2s off the engines and teach your juniors how to sit on them. Man the deck guns, the ladder pipes, and send someone for coffee.

The only way I would enter this structure is if there were say people in there trapped because they were messing around in there and they are the reason the fire started obviously.

[thelurker]

Thanks for putting up a new MTC, I was worried it was dead

[WebBoss]

papacheese said:

Another somewhat subtle twist....after speaking with more than a few forum members, I've heard: "I like the series but don't comment, since it would only be repeating what so-n-so said..."

Gray beards and grizzled vets: hold off commenting and let's get the younger, next generation firefighters and officers to offer their thoughts.

[glow=red,2,300]Make the Call: Offensive, Transitional, or Defensive....and why:[/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]DEFENSIVE[/glow]

This basically should be treated as a very large dumpster fire. Would you fight a dumpster from the inside?

I agree that if there is a report of victims trapped that we should err to do a search, however I would be very skeptical about putting our members in that kind of risk, in this pile of shit; when if there is someone inside, they probably aren't supposed to be there anyways. Remember, this is how we lost our brothers in the Worcester tragedy.

Defensive is also chosen because it would appear that we may have a water supply problem as well. Looking like a very rural area, the out come of this job is going to be heavily affected by the availabilty of tankers (yes, tankers) or delayed by the need to make long lays and relay pump the water up to the scene.

To further compound the issue, there appears to be limited access for apparatus, so other then that tower ladder thats going up, the other men are going to have to work with extra long hose stretches and long trips with ladders and all that. SO, with that in mind, the "indians" are probably going to be pretty tired out before they even make it up to the house.

I would also take serious consideration in setting up collapse zones, and maybe even think about a brush wagon or 2 to do some ember patrol in the general area.

From personal experiance, take heed in not positioning under any adjacent trees ;D and be happy that the tower ladder in this picture actually got out of the bed.

[BIGDOG]

Time to pull out the fat boy chairs, set up command on the front lawn and ask " Where in the hell is 13-8, I am hungry".

But seriously, not worth a life for a vacant building. It's already in the attic so set up the tower and let it loose.

[hp4l]

Sean beat me to it, but this is a rubbish fire. A very large rubbish fire, but still rubbish. Fire probably started from a squatter or kids messing around so a search is possible, but remember we didn't start the fire or put the people in there, so we should only do what we can safely. No need to get FF's killed over this place. But to answer papacheese's question: DEFENSIVE! Looks like it's all on Division 3 or the attic, whatever it is, but again, not worth the risk to go in there to save it. If you want to save trash, let me know, I do scrapping on the side and I will let you know what to look for. This is not it though.

[FirstDue312]

Not to beat a dead horse, but basically the Chief signing on location should say "Chief #### arriving on location, I have a 2 1/2 story single family dumpster well involved on division 2, place all companies in service, this will be a defensive fire." The ONLY question after that should be wheres my water and will I need tanker's or a pipeline. Unless a victim is hanging out a window, we won't even consider a rescue. Maintain a collapse zone, call in the canteen, and practice with the ground monitors and aerial pieces.

[voyager9]

Not going to go against the flow, I agree that I would call DEFENSIVE 95% of the time.

I don't know that I would be too quick to write off victims though. It all depends on the local and other factors I can't get from the picture. If your local has a vagrancy problem it increases the probability there are people there. If this is a urban/suburban area (doesn't appear to be) it increases that risk. What caused this fire? Lightning? Unknown? If it wasn't caused by the environment then there are only two possibilities: Vagrants or Torch. Unfortunately the strategy for either are diametrically opposed. If the fire is only on Division 3, there verywell could be someone downstairs that is viable.

I agree that I'm not going to risk my men for this pile of sticks but on the other hand
Buildings are only empty when we say they are.

[opsoverkill]

Reminds me of a Drug house in Camden.

That FD would respond to a working fire about every weekend same house and go in and put the fire out! Until One Chief final said enough is enough we are going to get hurt doing this. So he held it to 2 engines and a ladder. Setup for Ladder operations and let the thing burn. He final went into service when it was through the roof and the city would have to tear it down. Everyone on location shook his hand that night and supported his decision.

This house appears in that same category.

[papacheese]

thelurker said:

Thanks for putting up a new MTC, I was worried it was dead

Nah...MTC isn't dead...just the author....LOL. Have been a bit preoccupied with some other stuff, but will start accumulating pictures again.

Judging from the comments I get, it seems as though the series still has some value; I get the impression that there's a "Silent Majority" out there who regularly review the thread even though they don't necessarily comment, which is OK too. To me, the key is the younger generation who will have to fight these fires long after I've taken up permanent residence in my rocking chair. All of us with some time under our collective belts owe it to them to pass along all the hard-earned info we've gathered over the years about fighting fires, making prudent decisions, being good officers, thinking ahead.....I've NEVER been at ANY fire that hasn't taught me something new or a different twist on what I thought I knew. Every MTC I've posted has solicited some really good comments as well as a few insights I hadn't thought about...and that, my friends, is the real reason we can never stop learning.

[smiley]

This one is tricky. You could go offensive or defensive. Just look at it there could be homeless people living there cause its fall or winter time. so its cold out so they could be inside to keep warm. Still take a 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 in do a quick search if negative go to defense immidetaly. Two areials one on the a side and c side. And Just wait. Have the collapse zone ready and everything else. and like a couple other people said call in cherry hills canteen.

[hp4l]

smiley said:

This one is tricky. You could go offensive or defensive. Just look at it there could be homeless people living there cause its fall or winter time. so its cold out so they could be inside to keep warm. Still take a 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 in do a quick search if negative go to defense immidetaly. Two areials one on the a side and c side. And Just wait. Have the collapse zone ready and everything else. and like a couple other people said call in cherry hills canteen.

I like your ideas, especially with the homeless possibly in the house, but I personally have a hard time going offensive on an already boarded up house. Just my opinion though. I'd like to see a better picture of the property around the house to be able to determine if we can get additional aerials in there. You might be limited to just one.

[bcliff10]

thanks chief for starting it up again... im gonna go with everyone and say defensive. No point of making your man power tired goin into a boarded up house that may not even have floors. Like people said before me some aerials and monitors should do the trick.

[BIGDOG]

I think even thou this house is a lost, why not have a younger inexperienced officer make the call with the chief behind to make sure he things are ok.

Time to find out if he handle alittle pressure when it counts.

[ENG27SQ]

Assuming there is nobody inside....but ya never know..

Upon arrival...

1)Advise central of heavy fire in a 2 1/2 story dumpster, place all companies,notify central also that it is exterior only. (Request addt'l TANKERS if no hydrants).

2)Setup collapse zones.

3)Establish Water Supply.

4)Put the wet stuff on the entire thing.

5)Overhaul if needed after collapse.

6.Restore units to service.

7.Enjoy Rehab 13-8s good food and services.

8.Everyone goes home!!

I wouldn't ever think of sending a team in for a search that attic/roof isn't gonna last long being the place is boarded up.

[wellingcountry]

Chief keep the post coming I must say as a younger and new officer I am one of the many who sit back and see what the seasoned guys have to say and even somtimes I make my own ideas before anyone post and have been pretty close or right on with what the seasoned guys say but this is a great learning experience.

[papacheese]

Just a couple of comments....

1) I have to like what I've read (strictly from a personal standpoint...my opinion is just one of many). I chose this picture because of the obvious nature of the structure and the initial decision that would have to be made.

2) A couple of you mentioned the possibilty of homeless people inside, which is entirely valid and cannot be dismissed. This might be a classic "transitional" instead of strictly "defensive" for only that reason.

3) To me, the point of making a strategic "announcement" is to make certain everyone is on the same tactical page in the playbook BEFORE things even get going. In this case, I'd be tempted to announce "Transitional", then brief the crews that all I want is the quickest possible primary search BEFORE changing to "Defensive"

4) Always keep in mind that you can change your mind...if things start to go south, or conditions change quickly or drastically, all it takes is a push of the mic button.

I'm going to start a separate thread with a list of acceptable tactics for each mode...and would appreciate everyone's input as to what they consider good risk management choices...

[Kramer]

ok, im sure the homeless thing is a valid possibility, but (i hate to say this) i would NOT put any of my guys in there no matter what...i just dont think its worth losing one of our own for people that dont belong there. like i said before it looks like it would blow over even if there were no fire...

[FirstDue312]

Yeah I agree, I wouldn't willingly go in there, and if I was a white hat I would never send anybody to do a job that I wouldn't do. So that being said, I'd pull the boards with a hook from the outside, ladder the windows, on Div 2 and do my best to look for victims, but the structural integrity BEFORE the fire already looks compromised.

A question to the older crowd who may have a clue, what is the ruling on condemned houses from a legal standpoint, are we as firefighters even ALLOWED to enter a condemned structure?