Should EMS be involved with Vehicle Rescue

[opsoverkill]

Just trying to get the pulse of the county on this.

I HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER AS LONG YOU ARE TRAINED AND EQUIPPED PROPERLY AND CAN MAN THE UNIT WITH A CREW.

I BELIEVE EMTS MUST BE PART OF THAT TEAM DUE TO THE FACT THAT I BELIEVE THAT RESCUE ASSIGNMENT ARE PATIENT DRIVEN.

SO I HAVE VOTED THE COMBINED EFFORT IT JUST MAKES SENSE. TWO DIFFERENT ORGANIZATION WORK AS ONE TO ACHIEVE A
GOAL.

EXPLAIN YOUR VOTE WHY OR WHY NOTS

[gotwork]

I feel EMS should be part of the rescue in regards to patient care. EMS should say I want the patient out this area or way. The rescue should then do whatever is necessary to get the request done. I am not sure if this is where the question was going or not.... but in todays time of limited personnel I firmly believe that EMS based rescue units are and should be gone. Fire departments have the manpower to do the job and in more times than not have the fire district funding source to support the unit. EMS departments should focus on patient care and transport period... If a good relationship is established between the fire and ems then there will be a seemless job done at the incidents.

No offense to MOST EMS agencies but how often do they train? Can they physically handle using a tool? I know there are rigs out there with combi tools on them, Why? Who does patient care while the EMS crew is doing the door pop? These are where the problems come in. There are EMS based rescues that the department has a hard enough time getting a qualified BLS unit out and then they have to worry about properly staffing a Rescue unit. Let's look at Willingboro.. The FD is highly capable of doing rescues 1613 gets it done, but there's a paperweight in the EMS building with a pretty good compliment of equipment but it sits there when it could be put to good use. Lets look at Lumberton, the FD has a $400K "utility" that could be equipped for rescue but there's a power struggle over who does the rescue because the EMS doesn't want to give it up. GET THE RIG OUT!!!! Let the FD handle the Rescue. Does everyone get my point? We have a standing mutual aid agreement with America EMS to do EMS and we'll bring the rescue for both towns. It works and we're both realists and understand that it is the best interest of our patients to have dedicated units for each service.
Off my box now!!!!

[canman]

what Johnson said

[retiredpumpjo]

I agree with Wiley, there are to many EMS organizations who run rescues that worry more about streeting that first and the BLS Unit second. Let the stations taht have the personal and experience handle the rescue.

[papacheese]

My opinion is based strictly on one of Chief Johnson's main points: personnel. If the EMS organization can reliably supply enough trained people, then I have no problem whatsoever. It's only when they can't that the FD should step in and allow them to focus on their chief objective: the patient.

[chiefswife]

I have some strong feelings on this topic that i will keep to myself because i promised i would not be a trouble maker. all i will say is that its great that everyone wants to do rescue but if you do a great rescue and you get the patient out and there is no ambulance to transport the patient, you still look stupid. It only takes two EMT's to man a rig bring one with you!!!!

[WebBoss]

chiefswife said:

I have some strong feelings on this topic that i will keep to myself because i promised i would not be a trouble maker. all i will say is that its great that everyone wants to do rescue but if you do a great rescue and you get the patient out and there is no ambulance to transport the patient, you still look stupid. It only takes two EMT's to man a rig bring one with you!!!!

So if an accident gets a dedicated EMS providing agency dispatched, and a dedicated Engine Company dispatched, and a dedicated Rescue Company dispatched, then everyone we need should arrive in a timely fashion ready to go to work and save lives, correct?

It's a new millenium in Burlington County. The days of EMS doing EMS and Auto Extrication (Won't even say rescue) are over, mainly due to staffing constraints. Just the same as double pulling fire appratus from one station and expecting both units to have full "A-Team" crews, are over.

[opsoverkill]

Good points by all. And I hate the what ifs but, what if the FD based Rescue is under staffed on a regular basis? Why is it always assumed FD does the Rescue? Because their staffing can be as low as the EMS. And what if the EMS had no staffing issues and had a better funding source than FD. Does that change opinions?

[FirstDue312]

IMHO I'd have to say from what I've seen in BurlCo and elsewhere, the definition of the EMT has narrowed now to strictly patient care and transport (more or less). Back when I was a youngin (I still am, but a reallll youngin like diaper days) and 319 had 3199 (both the ALF and before that the Mack), the training requirements for an EMT were less stringent, no CEU's, and less call volume. Obviously, with these 3 dynamics changing (and I mainly blame the CEU's) that people simply didn't have the time to practice VX and do their CEU's much less work and have a family. So once squad's started going paid because of call volume, VX became less of a priority, budgets turned toward new rigs, salaries, and training classes for their paid crew. Then when FD's went paid, they generally had the larger budget, and basically adopted VX.

The short of it (even though that was long) if a squad can do it, do it. Just don't forget patient care. If an FD can do it, do it. Just coordinate with each other and make sure everyone gets the iron on the streets.

[coatman]

Sean

Does it really matter who does the rescue as long as it is done safely and the patient is removed and transported.

Over the last 20 years alot has changed when it comes to rescues there were not many companies doing extrications back then and those who were were mostly EMS. Every rescue should be handled as a team with one goal and that is the patient.

Would it matter if 4399 was painted yellow would that make the rescues go any different in your town? I would hope not. ( not busting your B***S just using that as an example)

Every station has manpower issues even the busiest. This is why we have chief officers if he/she knows they are short handed more help is only a click of the radio away.

TRAINING!! TRAINING!!. It does not matter what type of tool it is or what type of truck it came off.

It can be a million dollar rescue truck with every tool on the market that pulls up but if the people on the unit have no clue what to do when they get there its just another piece of equipment for traffic to drive around.

Ok off my box now!! Sean the post was not meant to blast your post but you know my feeling about training when it comes to extrications you can never do enough

[station27chief]

Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what color the truck is, who the people are manning the truck, as long as the patient receives the proper care and the extrication is patient driven by a team of individuals that have pick up the tools other than only when the tones drop. NFPA 1670 Rescue technician training is a must. Training is not just cutting up a car once a month. I have seen too many extrications performed in a manner that jeopardizes the patient and quite frankly have taken far to long because the individuals involved were incompetent. Vehicles have changed, hazards are different and at times the rescuer has tunnel vision that we must use a hydraulic tool rather than a method that is efficient and safe. I voted for combined. However, I continue to be concerned with our ability in Burlington County to street a BLS regardless of the town when some of the team is manning the rescue. Additionally, how many rescue companies do not use cribbing every time and take chances cutting corners. Not mine. Stabilization everytime. Patient care is #1 and most importantly Everyone Goes Home.

[shader101]

although veh rescue is preformed by the fd in my dist, since we are there to assist the emt's its their call what they want from us, pop the door remove the roof , block traffic,anything we can do to assist them

[gotwork]

Sean,

I think you are taking the FD should do VX personally. Even if your area is the exception, EMS in this area and even the water front is not able to do both. Endeavor (starting to realize), America, Florence (both in one house now), Moorestown, and even us in the West (America brings the BLS we bring the Rescue) realized it is not possible in todays time to perform both duties properly. Our patients deserve better than two half a**ed units showing up with less than skilled players. Patient care should be the only reason the rescue is being done. If your staffing is that good bring a second or third BLS, more times than not there are always more patients than buses.

[Reverend]

Good points all. My turn to step onto the polpet.

FIRE DEPARTMENT BASED EMS

Most of the problems you are are talking about could be fixed with this type system. I know it would cause problems initially. And I can apperciate wanting to have your own little kingdom to rule, but we are going to have to start working together and closely to survive. We can can say were doing it well but were not. How do I know this, I read your posts, this station is not getting out, that stations people are under trained, they arent relaiable. I am talking about being under one roof one set of standards, one group of decision makers, one group of people getting it done for the community. I read these posts and its all Bull S**T. What you want to say is they shouldnt do it because they suck, because they dont get out, because you want to, because we dont like them. Thats it isnt it! One post mentioned a organization having better funding sources. If we are together we dont fight for the same money and maybe get it. We fight together and always get it.

Fire/Ems Departments in the county have gotten grants in one organization bought the equipment and then the other organization bought the same equipment from budget money a short time later. They dont call that better funding, Thats called waste. A large majority of the country operates FD based EMS. We need to work together in everything we do. That includes on the street, VX, patientcare, fires,funding,organizing, and surviving.

My vote is for combined, but the real kind of combined. All IN!

[gotwork]

I agree Rev. I am in with that. My department is a fire based EMS system and I can honestly say that with our great partnership with America we put a very high quality product on the street and our funding is used to better both sides of the fence.

[opsoverkill]

Coatman, Gotwork, Rev

Thanks for the great responses. I posted this thread to get a better view on some of the things that I am seeing. I am one that has no problem with who is doing Rescue as long as all objective are getting completed and training is ongoing.

It just bugs me when people get that F-you we do it better and we do not need you attitude.

And from the response you guys have reaffirm that they are in the minority. And you guys promote forward thinking and worry globally not independently

[gotothelight]

A combination of Fire & EMS services working together to perform a quick, safe, effective rescue, while providing optimum patient care! No chest thumping, no in-fighting, no "flying by the seat of your pants". A plan of action established and followed to a successful rescue.

Oh God..... What am I saying? Where the hell would this Utopia be? I wanna work there!

Oh yeah... I agree with Wiley!

[shader101]

gotothelight: that place does excist; mickey is the emergency management chief, minney is the emt, goofy is the pd officer, wimpy is the fire chief, the three stooges run the engine,snow white does the payroll.

[gotothelight]

And they all lived happily ever after..... ;D

[opsoverkill]

Take to the Pineys to get it. 43rd does it that way and it works very well